00:00 Trust us. You have a phosphorus availability problem, whether you wanna admit it or not, whether you know it or not, trust us, 00:07 you have a phosphorus availability problem. That's what we're talking about in this episode of Extreme Ag Cutting the curve. 00:13 Welcome to Extreme Ag Cutting the Curve podcast, where real farmers share real insights and real results to help you improve your farming operation. 00:22 This episode of Cutting the Curve is brought to you by cloth where machines aren't just made, they're made for more 00:29 with a wide range of tractors, combines, foragers and hay tools. Cloth is a family business just as driven, demanding, 00:36 and dedicated as yours. Go to cloth.com and start cutting your curve with their cutting edge equipment. 00:42 And now here's your host, Damien Mason. Hey there. Welcome to another fantastic episode of Extrem Ice. 00:48 Cutting the curb. We're talking about phosphorus, phosphorus uptake, phosphorus availability, whether you'd have big, huge signs in your soil test 00:56 that's phosphorus is all over your soil or not. Trust us, it's not getting your plants. The, this is a subject we're gonna cover in this episode. 01:03 I've got experts that are gonna talk about it. Tommy Roach with Nature's James Paris with Agritech USA and Temple Rhodes Eastern Shore Maryland Farmer. 01:12 And one of my absolute favorite people to ever have on this show. Um, you said this 01:18 before we hit record, you got a little bit more colorful in your language temple, which you're akin to do. 01:24 And you said, listen, such and such, you've got a phosphorus availability problem, whether you even understand it or not. 01:31 And we're not in any way being insulting, it's just that for years we've probably said, oh, 01:35 there's plenty of phosphorus out there. Or where I apply a bunch of phosphorus, but phosphorus applied versus phosphorus in the plants is 01:41 two completely different things. So lead me off from the farmer perspective before we go to these guys. 01:47 So, I mean, from my perspective, you know, at least in, in, in our area for instance, like there's a certain amount of phosphorus that we can put down, 01:55 but we know a lot of that's not available, right? So it's no different than if you put a hundred dollars in a bank account and I only told you, Hey, 02:02 for this year you can only take $30 out even though you need more. So we know that we're not getting enough out there 02:09 and we're know we're not, you know, one of our big things that we talk about all the time is spoon feeding crops, 02:14 spoon feeding this, spoon, feeding that. And if able to get that amount of phosphorus into that plant, you almost need to look at it from a perspective 02:24 of, you know, being able to hit those key target areas. You know, maybe 20% of it is that you need to get into the plant upfront 02:33 and then a little bit in the middle, then a lot in the, in the, you know, in the, towards the reproductive cycles. But we know that we're not getting the amount 02:42 of phosphorus that we need. We always have some type of phosphorus deficiency in the plants. You know, whether it's corn, beans, soybeans, 02:50 or uh, wheat, you know, it doesn't matter. Milo as well. We always have, and it might not be in the beginning, 02:57 and it might not be in the end, it might be in the middle. But reme, regardless of 03:02 where we take our tissue samples at somewhere there during that season, we are gonna be phosphorus deficient. 03:09 We need to learn how to utilize it. James, I came in contact with you the very first time when I started working 03:15 with XT Extreme Ag, uh, at their events and recording episodes like this with your company. It was almost right off the bat with Matt Miles 03:24 and Rob Deadman. And they said that the story goes that they knew that their soil test showed 03:29 that they had phosphorus in the soil, but they had phosphorus deficiency in plants. And it wasn't a one field thing, 03:35 it wasn't one acre of a field. It was really kind of a systemic issue throughout their farming operation. 03:41 And then Rob sat in on a session that your company talked about, uh, a product that helps get neutral charger believes the product 03:49 that helps get the plant, uh, to uptake phosphorus. And that's the first time I really heard the whole discussion that you probably have plenty 03:57 of phosphorus in your soil and somehow there's this disconnect. So kind of take me through that, that history, 04:02 but also why the hell that happens. Well, I think we can even take it back a step even further. 04:08 Look, we're on a call with a company that's very successful at phosphorus application. Natures, there's a reason why starter fertilizers 04:16 are successful. It's 'cause they deliver phosphorus in an efficient fashion where the plant needs it in a concentrated band. 04:25 Look, it, I think we could all probably agree if slinging dry fertility on the soil surface in the fall was effective 04:32 at delivering phosphorus in an available form early in the season, we wouldn't need to band place phosphorus 04:40 around the seed to give the plant access to phosphorus early. It doesn't matter how we apply phosphorus to the soil. 04:46 There's gonna be chemistry interactions that happen in the soil that take phosphorus and put it in a form 04:53 that's not readily available to the plant. So everybody out there that's using a starter fertilizer now is using one 05:00 because they've seen a yield response to getting phosphorus in close to the seed early. And the reason that successful is 05:07 because we're taking out a lot of the chemistry. We're taking out a huge slice of the soil over an acre. We're placing phosphorus nice 05:15 and close to the seed where it needs it early, and we're ensuring that it has the right amount of phosphorus to get off to a good start. 05:22 So I think the fact that growers now are utilizing starters and have seen a positive response from 'em, a large part of 05:30 that is because of the phosphate response. And that's because of some of the inefficiencies that happen when phosphorus gets applied to the soil. 05:39 Tommy, uh, he, he's, he's setting you up here, uh, to talk about your stuff, but I want you to talk about your stuff. 05:45 I wanna talk about availability, because that's what we said. Trust us, you have a phosphorus availability problem. 05:51 So go go a little deeper. So James says, we're using a starter fertilizer because we get a response. 05:57 We know that. And obviously that works better than the old, shall we say, outdated method of flinging dry fertilizer out 06:05 after the crops come off in the fall. So help me understand availability. Why didn't it work then, and why does it, 06:11 why do you get a response now that time of planting? Thank you for the lead in James. Um, 'cause we know when we place phosphorus, in particular 06:24 in a band, whether it's in a furrow, in a strip till when you're typically using dry fur fertilizer, uh, Santa two by two band, uh, 06:36 we know we get a phosphorus response. Now there's different metals that absolutely love to tie up phosphorus, uh, 06:46 aluminum being the absolute worst one. And when you're sound the, in the southeast or in the Great Lakes where, uh, soils tend 06:58 to be lower in pH, that's where you will get, uh, aluminum problems. Iron is another one. 07:08 And if you get out in the plains where we always hear Kelly Garrett talk about he's got a calcium problem, 07:19 and you, you've got all that calc soil out there, well guess what? Calcium's tying up with phosphorus 07:27 and rendering it unavailable. So there are ways to, through placement, through phosphorus form, because there's a big, a big difference 07:38 between orthophosphate versus polyphosphate. And coming to find out, there's a lot of people that don't know the difference. 07:46 'cause plants only take up orthophosphate and, um, it, it's just a big chemistry cycle. That's basically what it is. When we talk about phosphorus, 07:57 You just went over my head. I didn't know there's, I'm one of those people, and you said a lot of people don't realize there's 08:02 difference between polyphosphate, orthophosphate and only, uh, orthophosphates are, uh, available to plant. So, all right, this, let's just, let's go back 08:13 to my thing there, James. Um, I, I do a soil test and it looks like I got phosphorus out there, so why do I need to apply it? 08:22 And then more importantly, why, why is phosphorus different? It seems to me that it's the one that doesn't get 08:30 uptaken by plants, other stuff does. Is it, am I right in that that phosphorus is different, that it doesn't, it's it somehow is 08:38 less available than other nutrients? Well, it depends. Okay. So if you look at everything, the soil, 08:44 imagine soil is a bunch of magnets, okay? So your soil in general, the clay particles in your soil that make up your soil composition, 08:53 composition are negatively charged. Okay? So when you talk about what makes up your soil in terms of nutrients, 09:03 and it depends on where your soil came from. Yeah. If you've got a Lyme formation, you've got a lot of calcium in there, or calcium is a positive calcium. 09:11 Then as Tommy said before, if you've got a high pH, calcium might be your predominant cation. So you've got a bunch of positive charges in there. Alright? 09:21 So if you're adding positive charges into a positive charge, it's like plus magnets. 09:27 They're not gonna fix together. Phosphorus is negatively charged. So you put something that's negatively charged, 09:34 you've got a negative charge magnet and a bunch of positive charge magnets. What do they want to do? They want to bind together. 09:40 Yes. How We actually make phosphorus fertilizer in the first place is we take appetite, which is calcium phosphate. Yeah. Positive calcium, negative phosphorus. 09:49 That's precipitated in a rock. And we split it apart. We use acidity to split it apart. We react it, and then we end up with a pure form 09:59 of phosphorus in its negative charge. We add that back into the soil. That's why you say 10:05 that if you talk about negatively charged things in a soil full of positives, that's where the interactions happen. 10:12 And that can happen with, you know, that can, it's not only phosphorus yet nitrates negatively charged as well. 10:17 And that can flow through soil as well. Nitrogen forms vary. Phosphorus forms vary. I would say phosphorus is probably 10:25 more reactive because it, there's a lot of things, as Tommy said before, that will fix to it in the soil, you've got a lot of calcium, it's really hard 10:35 to get away from the fact you've got a lot of calcium in the soil. If you've got a low pH, aluminum or iron might be a problem. 10:41 So you're talking about things that want to stick together, and when essentially they bind together, 10:47 they're less available to the plant. Okay? We let off temple by saying that, uh, he, he, he ended my sentence there with less available to the plant. 10:55 We let off with. Trust us, you have a phosphorus availability problem. And you said absolutely you do. Uh, you're certain of this. 11:03 Do you think you're faster to the curve on this? Do you think you're, we, we talk about, uh, you know, bringing stuff to people that you, 11:10 you didn't know this 10 years ago. Tell me about your journey of realizing that you've got availability of phosphorus problems. 11:17 So the journey happens with a guy that has a nutrient management plan that's was implemented by the state, right? 11:25 So, um, once we got implemented and we had to start doing this nutrient management plan, it's, it's, it works and it's fine, 11:34 but they're saying that we can only use a certain amount of phosphorus per year because they says that, they say 11:42 that it's mobile in the soil, not immobile. So exact opposite of what everybody else says. They think phosphorus moves through the soil profile 11:50 and then it'll end up in the Chesapeake Bay Bay. So we had to learn how to use phosphorus differently. So UBA two in furrow is pretty much, it's 12:00 for the most part standard out here. Everybody uses it. And, you know, the forms of being able to put it in the band like Tommy 12:07 and James are talking about, that's something that we've, you know, a lot of people are just implementing that now, 12:13 and that seems new to them. But we've been doing that for 25 years. So we've been down this road 12:19 and down this journey for a while, but we were still ending up with what they quote unquote says 12:24 that I can put on a acre of ground. We were still ending up phosphorus deficient, you know, we just couldn't get it into the plant. 12:34 So then we started thinking about, you know, years ago, thinking about adding biology and adding bacteria and then adding, you know, uh, something like the polymer, 12:44 like what's incharge? And now when we're blending those things and we're, we're adding multiple different forms of one, 12:53 you need biology to and things to eat on the phosphorus and make it available to the plant, but you also need to keep it from getting locked up. 13:01 You know, James has talked about, you know, and Tommy talks about calcium. Like, you know, 13:08 even though we're not a high quote unquote high cow, what we also have a base saturation of, of 70% cow in our soil. 13:16 So 70% of that is out there. Like we actually do have a little bit higher calcium. So immediately, soon as you put phosphorus into the ground, 13:25 it's immediately trying to tie up. So what I'm trying to do, you know, I started out, you know, three years ago, maybe four years ago with James trying 13:35 to prove him wrong with, you know, some of these products. 'cause that's what it seems like I do. 13:40 I try to prove it wrong and figure out how I can make it fail first. But I started out down this journey 13:46 and what I found out is every time that we make an application of nitrogen or phosphorus or whatever that we make, if I can spoonfeed it 13:56 and drag it all along the season, and I can go buy, you know, Tommy gave me this cool little sheet, you know, 14:03 that tells you like exactly what your bell curve is with phosphorus uptake into the plant, you know, potassium uptake, all your different ones. 14:12 Well, if you use that and you compare it to the years of tissue sampling that I've done over the last 15 years, 14:20 it's exactly the same. Well, we know that phosphorus, we need, you know, 50 to anywhere from 50 to 70% in reproductive stages 14:30 depending on the crop. But what yet, we front load the whole entire plant. So we put all our phosphorus out up front. 14:37 We front load the plant, we give it time to bind up into the soil and bind into these other, um, you know, calcium 14:44 and everything else, aluminum. And it's tied up. But we expect it to be there in the end. That's not the way that it happens. 14:51 So, you know, with some of these different things, and Tommy, I have to tell you about, you know, they've got some stuff going on as well. 14:59 Being able to untie it, knowing that it's going to eventually tie back up, untie it for a short stint of time to drag a bunch of phosphorus into the plant, 15:09 and then we know it's gonna tie back up and then we need to untie it again later on. I think we've made more, um, you know, 15:17 it seems like we've gotten further by doing that than anything else. Tommy, he, he just talked about tying up and untying 15:26 and it got me a little, uh, thinking why is he having you talk? You're a fertility company. 15:32 Uh, I would think that you'd be all about a, it doesn't matter. Buy more of my crap, put more of my stuff out there, 15:39 fling it, fling it, fling it, drop it, drop it, Whatever. You just call you a fertility crap. 15:43 No, I miss stuff. You know what I mean? You Did say it. The reality here is, um, it's James's product Nutri charge, isn't it? 15:54 Isn't that the one and then, and a new one, nut Nutri charge release. Isn't that a new one that we 15:57 just talked about at Commodity Classic? Yeah, Nutri charge. Yeah. That's the product that's supposed to untie phosphorus. 16:04 Seems to me that if you're in the fertilizer business like nature's is, you'd be like, Hey, I'd rather, 16:10 I'd prefer you just keep putting more of my stuff on. Don't do the dry, don't do the dry fling in the fall. Just put my stuff on morning, noon and night. 16:19 Well, at the end of the day, growers have to be here tomorrow, next year to, to be able to buy, as you said, to buy our crap 16:29 Stuff. Fertility products, Crop inputs, amazing crop inputs. Crap. Yes. So the, the problem with phosphorus 16:41 fertility in general goes back a long time. Everybody has been used to using dry fertilizer all up front 16:54 and until here in the last 20, 30 years in a corn belt rotation of corn beans, they fertilize the corn 17:02 and then just put the beans out there for the next year as a quote unquote cover crop to get to the next year's corn. 17:12 Well, they never fertilize the bean crop. And so you're, you're expecting in this case, phosphorus, you put it out there to be available 17:23 to the corn crop and also to the bean crop the next year that that's not working. 17:30 If you look at temple was talking about uptake curves. So in the case of corn, we always use a rule of thumb of you, you would like to have, we'll just call it six 17:43 to seven pounds of phosphorus out upfront. That's what you need for the plant to get going with root development. 17:53 Put zinc in with it. Yep. That all goes to roots. But the vast majority of it is not needed until in reproductive stage. 18:05 Um, soybeans for example, you're, once you get to say R one, you've still got 70% of the P 2 0 5 yet to go. 18:17 So that's why a lot of people are focusing more on what can we do late season on beans, on corn as far as phosphorus goes. 18:26 So we've got to be able, we've got to learn how to manage these nutrients for growers 18:35 to keep making money and survival. Are you nodding your head, James? What are you nodding about? 18:42 Yeah, no, I completely agree. I think there's, there's two things to talk about here. We talk about form, timing, placement. Yeah. 18:49 So form of phosphorus, you already spoke about, uh, Tommy already mentioned ortho phosphate. So there's no conversion process 18:56 that relies on soil temperature, moisture, pH, anything early. So you get something out that's readily available on 19:03 ortho phosphate form. It's gonna be largely available quickly, but orthophosphate still subject to tie up. 19:10 And when you talk about our product, for example, being something that can help release phosphorus, I think we need to back it in. 19:16 We're something that helps p applied stay available longer. And then you look at different management strategies coming 19:24 in, biologicals, all of these things are great additional tools to be able to bring phosphorus from an unavailable form to available. 19:33 The fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter whether it's p applied or p that's released from microbes once it's in the soil 19:40 and free, it's subject to all the same tie up that there is. So there's a synergy in looking at 19:49 how we apply it in the form we apply it so it's available when it needs it. And then additional tools like products like ours 19:57 that can look at trying to keep that phosphorus is either applied or sequestered from a biological available 20:05 longer to the plant. We're trying to get bigger windows to get larger mass removal of phosphorus from the soil because then it's not a limiting factor for the crop. 20:18 Did you say we had three things about form tie up and process? Is that what I, I wanna make 20:22 sure I get this written down right? Well, uh, I said form placement. Yeah. So placement's key. Yeah, placement. Placement. So, and timing. 20:31 Placement And timing. And, and that's one thing that I think someone has experimented and pushed the needle with. 20:38 I don't think anyone's pushed the needle further with timing than temple. Uh, traditionally they'd say you've got, 20:44 you've got no business going in and putting phosphorus in a wire drop application. Why would you do that? 20:49 Is it because it does not needed that latency or that that or that late? It's Critically, it's critically needed. 20:55 The challenge is, is that phosphorus doesn't move. So if you apply it to the soil surface, how are you gonna guarantee it gets 21:00 the root system of the plant? So, but temples prove that wrong. So it's, I think we can start 21:07 to look at phosphorus a little bit differently. And I'll probably throw rocks a bit at the past in terms of the fertilizer industry. 21:14 But we used to have this theory of the bank. Yeah, we would continuously bank phosphorus levels in our soil. 21:19 It's good business strategy. Yeah. Continue to apply phosphorus to the soil. It doesn't really matter about 21:26 how much phosphorus you have in the soil. The plant still only has the same limited access to what you have. 21:31 So theory is we have more phosphorus in the soil, it's got low access, it's gonna have a chance to get more. But if we look at placement form, timing, all these things, 21:41 and we can overcome that mindset and at the end of the day, that's what's gonna make growers money and save them money. 21:48 So he just threw rocks to the fertilizer industry. Uh, but there is some points, and we've got, we've covered this in a few 21:53 of our different recordings and we're not, we don't, we're not anti-D dry fertilizer. Tommy's spent a great at the Bobby Classic and the booth. 22:00 So we did a panel with Tommy and he actually said, listen, I'm not throwing shade on the dry for it has its place. 22:04 The point is we've over relied on it to his point in the corn belt where I'm from, fling the stuff out there in, in mass quantities 22:12 and then for your, for your corn crop. Don't even put anything out on your soybeans. Not only preseason or at time of plant or even throughout. 22:19 That was the traditional thing. Don't even fertilize them damn soybeans. Who cares about 'em, right? It's 22:23 'cause it ain't corn ain't sexy and, but we're changing our mindset. But the one thing you just said, James, 22:28 and I want to throw it to temple, the idea that somehow phosphorus didn't move, you said it, and then James said, putting it out late 22:35 season threw a wide drop. Why would you do that? It doesn't go anywhere if phosphorus doesn't move. 22:39 How did it get in the Chesapeake Bay? How did it take, how did it make an algae bloom in Lake Erie? 22:45 Uh, to the point where we've got legislation in the, in north Ohio. It, it does move. 22:51 Well, it, you know, back when all of these phosphorus management tools came out, you're also talking about there wasn't that much adoption 23:01 of, of, you know, strip-till there wasn't hardly any no-till adoption. Like, so you get a big rain that comes along 23:09 and guys that are plowing ground, working ground, maybe you have some sediment dragging in there. I just don't, there's not as much movement 23:18 through the soil profile as what they, as what they think. It's so tied up in the soil. 23:25 It it real realistically, it doesn't move. Now take for instance, an area like let's call a farm where they have a really, 23:37 really high PPM on phosphorus. Well, in our area, uh, anything above 150 ppms according to where, how close they are 23:49 to a tributary or whatever, they might not be able to put any phosphorus on at all. None. Zero. Well, what do you do with that guy? 23:57 You use products that we can put out there, you know, we can use ZO link pe, we can add nutri charge to it and have the combination of them two 24:06 to do two separate things. And these guys need to talk about that in a minute. But you can actually utilize the phosphorus 24:15 that's out there in that bank that James talked about, and we can get it into the plant. That's the only way 24:21 that we can remove the phosphorus from the soil because it's not ever, we have to remove it in a form of grain, right? 24:29 You know, we trade pounds of fertility out there for pounds of grain sold. Well, if we're not, if we can't produce a big crop on 24:41 phosphorous soils that are real high, but yet the plant's deficient because it's all tied up, what are we doing? 24:49 We need to add something to get to, to remove the phosphorous from the soil and sell it in grain form. 24:59 All right? There's a lot of stuff covered there. And so let's go back to the thing of if you already have, uh, a high phos soil, then, 25:08 and Tommy, I'll throw this at you. If like for instance, you know, I'm from a dairy farm, they always talked about where you put the manure 25:13 and put the manure and put the manure. You've got lots and lots of phosphorus. Don't I just need James' product that helps ex 25:21 extract the phosphorus versus needing your stuff? Do I not need, do I not need your stuff? Do I need more just the release 25:29 or the, I'm shelly The, the, the product that helps it get in the plant. So you, you need a little bit of everything. 25:37 Um, 'cause Temple mentioned rise link pe it, it historically, when people talk about, oh, I apply manure, I got all nutrients I need, that's great 25:53 and wonderful, but a lot of those nutrients are, uh, are tied up unavailable. It's got to be converted into a form that, that plants can 26:04 access and take up. So in, in my little mind, so R link pd, a true bacillus base two, 26:16 two strain product that that help that colonizes plant roots early in the season. And conversely, and through a, uh, exchange 26:31 of carbon from plant to so microbe, they start producing enzymes. These enzymes unlock, in this case phosphorus, 26:42 uh, also decomposes saccharides cellulose. It takes all of these compounds that aren't a avail available to the plant 26:55 and renders them available so the plant can take 'em up. So in that case, you unlock it in the case 27:03 of UltraCharge, in my mind then if you do what Temple does and running it through y drop later in the season, 27:13 you unlock it early, you apply nutri charge late to where it can keep it unlocked. That's a, you're taking multiple products placed at the 27:25 right time and you're able to keep that phosphorus plant available until you hit that bell curve. And that say our, our two stage, uh, when, when 27:39 corn plant really needs it, If we have a phosphorus availability problem, as Temple said, and you guys all agreed 27:45 before we hit record it, everybody does. Everybody does. How big of a pro, how much are they, how many bushels? 27:52 When Temple says you've got, you've got phosphorus in the field, it's, and it is not getting into your plant 27:56 and you can get it outta your field by, by taking off bushels. How many bushels are we talking about? 28:00 How much, how much James, how many bushels are people missing out The people listen to this right here say, you know what, 28:05 by golly I think these guys are right. I need to change my game here on phosphorus availability. Get and make it more available. How much are they, 28:12 what do they stand to gain? I'm not sure if you can exactly quantify it, but let's just take a fact. 28:18 Let's look at the Maleic soil test developed in the late eighties. Okay, so from the late eighties till today, genetics 28:24 for corn plants today on average require 50 pounds more p per acre. Because Say that again. 28:30 Say that, say it again. Say it again. Genetics today from corn plants on average, from when the last soil tests were developed 28:36 that we all rely on, your maleic requires 50 pounds more p per acre because our yields have gone up, 28:44 we still make fertilizer recommendations based upon what those genetics were in the past. So if it's 50 pounds more, 28:52 but we're still fertilizing the same amount for that crop, I don't know where the ceiling is, 28:59 the ceiling is wherever we can start to move the needle and we start to shift about how we approach phosphorus, it needs to be more important from the grower perspective. 29:08 You sometimes I'll go ahead and just go ahead and tell our listeners, you and I first met in Arkansas and you challenged me, so I had to respond 29:18 by taking off my shirt and threatening you. But anyway, that's fine. That's kind of how I do things. 'cause I'm a little bit out there. My wife 29:24 says sometimes I scare people. But anyway, you say stuff sometimes that I'm like, you know, this guy from New Zealand is actually brilliant. 29:29 He just said some interesting thing there. You know what I never thought of that we're do, we're still testing and recommending based on 29:36 how we did stuff 50 years ago. What the hell? Every other, every other aspect of ag has moved pretty remarkably except for which I didn't, 29:46 this is not a episode about soil testing, but that's kinda what you're talking about. We're still doing stuff fairly yesterday year. 29:54 I mean, there's a, there's there's emerging of technologies. Yeah. Equipment's allowing us to advance 30:01 nutritional application and timing. So thank goodness equipment's advancing, but it wouldn't be advancing if they weren't 30:07 getting crop responses. So the way that we apply nutrients today, we're getting responses. 30:12 So when you ask the question, how many bushels we're leaving off the table, that's a broad question. 30:16 And it really depends on how challenging your soils are for phosphorus. But I don't think we're anywhere near exploiting the full 30:24 potential of the genetic potential of our crops until we figure out how to use nutrients better and, and in a better form. 30:31 'cause largely they're the same forms that they've always been in. So 30:36 I mean, people realize, I I mean we're, we're putting this out there. Trust us, you have a phosphorus availability issue. 30:42 How many people do you think are oblivious to this? Most probably, I mean, temple started, started di dial into this. 30:48 Tell me, what do you think? I mean, do my neighbors in Indiana think this or do they think, nah, there's some of, I I didn't, 30:55 I didn't get yield because of this, or I didn't get a response because this, how big of a problem is this 30:59 and how big is the awareness? I thought that was temple. No, I'll throw it at You. I mean 31:07 I can go ahead Tommy and then I'll answer it too. Um, so if you look at what nutrients people focus on, one, 31:22 nobody's ever gonna think they have a nitrogen problem. 'cause they're always gonna keep throwing more nitrogen on to the detriment of what they should be. 31:32 For years and years, they built up the phosphorus bank bank. And just 31:39 because it's out there doesn't mean it's it's plant available or the plant can get to it because plant roots, you're only talking about, you know, 31:49 6, 8, 8 inches of a root ball that, that a corn plant's gonna have in a, in any given year to access nutrient water. 31:59 Uh, I'm in the business of fertilizing plant, not building, building a nutrient bank that may never be, 32:07 may never be available in our lifetime or my kids' lifetime. So Temple, you said you were gonna go, 32:18 I mean, I think it's a huge problem. I think everybody thinks that, that, you know, we had to have this, you know, this great big, tall, 32:28 sexy, black green plant and you know, I've seen time and time again where it's, it's not about that. And, you know, and what makes a plant, you know, so big 32:39 and tall and sexy, you know, nitrogen, nitrogen is the holy grail of growing corn. You know, corn is the holy grail of grain, you know, 32:48 so everybody, By the way, that's kind of attributed to Kelly Garrett, he said the holy grail of 32:52 North American agriculture is corn. 'cause American farmers, uh, love to grow corn, more corn, more corn, more corn to get more corn, 32:57 more nitrogen, more nitrogen, more nitrogen. So there's no question that that's the thing nobody thinks about pea except 33:03 it is one of the big three. So it is thrown out there and, but, uh, Well it is one of the big three, 33:07 but it's probably the, the one out of the three that's the biggest problem. And people don't realize it. 33:12 And you know, how many times have you seen where corn gets out in the or stages after brown silk and you get a little bit of purpling out on your tips, 33:22 but everybody's like, ah, the plant's senescent. It's, you know, it's, you know, we're getting close to black layer, the plant's 33:28 done blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well that's my point. If you keep phosphorus in the plant and keep the energy in the plant, 33:36 you can do a lot more in the our stages. And all of a sudden when you meet potentially most of your needs with phosphorus, now all 33:48 of a sudden you have a plant that is, you know, basically starting to dry down and the only thing brown on it is the ear 33:55 and everything else is still green. That's what you want. Because we know that we're getting the most potential for 34:02 that genetic variety to get it into the, into the, what we're selling is the grain. If we can spoon feed that crop all the way through 34:12 with all those bell curves and hit it correctly, we can get to those stages. But everybody's always worried about nitrogen. 34:21 And they are also worried about potassium too. You know, everybody's like, oh, well, you know, my base SATs on potassium 34:28 or low, so I'm gonna add a bunch of potassium. Well, there's other ways to to, you know, try to fix that in there as well, you know, feed it at the time 34:38 that the plant needs it. But phosphorus is one of 'em things that we, you know, that's the one that's right in the middle. 34:44 It's like the middle child in the, in the, in the family. It, it kind of gets forgotten about. 34:50 You know, they're worried about the baby 'cause it's full rotten. And the oldest one seems like it gets everything like, 34:55 but the kid in the middle like gets forgotten about. Well, that's what phosphorus is. James, I didn't know we were gonna delve into like, family 35:05 dynamics in this episode. I'm trying To think of an analogy with family there that I could throw it. But 35:11 He went into, he went into family, he went into family dynamics and birth order on a, on a subject that was really about 35:18 nutrient availability to plant. So I, you gotta get me outta here. You're, you're smart. Get me outta here. I need to know, first off, 35:26 how do I apply your stuff? I apply nutri charge at time of planting, and then throughout the season, 35:32 I know I put Tommy's stuff out in a starter blend and then I put it out again when I'm spoon feeding. He's, he's all about the spoonfeeding. 35:38 We've covered that in multiple panels discussions at Commodity Classic. Do I spoonfeed your stuff too? 35:44 Well, let's just look at, let's, let's make it clear there that there's no, when it comes to phosphorus 35:48 and a plant, there's no silver bullet. You can't just say, I'm gonna go apply enzymes or microbes and then replace all the phosphorus 35:55 fertility in the first place. So first thing you've gotta have, you've gotta have phosphorus in for corn, for example, 36:02 available early at the right time. 'cause phosphorus, availability's really low when soils are cool. 36:08 So you wanna make sure that there's phosphorus there early. Your microbes aren't gonna work early 36:13 because there's no root system to colonize. So make sure you've got phosphorous in there early to develop a strong root system, 36:19 put in your microbial products at that stage, help build a bigger root system that can access products. Our product is something that goes in. 36:27 So what we do when you talk about breaking phosphorous free from the soil, I want to clarify, we stop 36:35 phosphorus from fixing in the soil. So we stop the p that goes in from fixing, and then when the biology bring phosphorus into the same 36:44 form that phosphorus is in the first place, we allow it to stay available longer. Mm-Hmm. So we're the protection piece to phosphorus, 36:52 whether it's applied early or it's phosphorus that's sequestered by the plant late. We're part of a solution. 37:01 We're not a replacement for phosphorus fertilizer. And I would be very leery for anybody to say, Hey, cut out your phosphorus fertilizer 37:11 unless you're mandated to, because phosphorus in different forms at different times is important and there's no silver bullet for phosphorus. 37:23 See, I should have ended with him. He's such a good, he, he's, he's like, I wanna take him on the road with me. 37:28 He always just wraps it up in a nice package and puts a bow on it. Tommy, what do you got? Closing thoughts on this? 37:34 Uh, trust us. You have a phosphorus availability problem. We've already decided. Temple says everybody does. 37:40 Uh, I like James' thing that the product that he has doesn't, it doesn't necessarily make it more avail. It, it breaks it loose. 37:48 The terminology used it breaks it loose, It keeps it available. Yeah. What that's important 37:54 because we talked about chemistry fixing things. Yeah. Where're the buffer that stops at fixing back together. 38:00 Okay, Tommy, well, how do I use your stuff? Uh, I said earlier, it, it needs link needs to ride in starter fertility on the planter along with, 38:13 because what James said, you're, you're putting it out in a cold soil. It, it's, you're, it's going into a starvation scenario. 38:24 So it needs to ride along with humic, fulvic, potassium acetate, things that then that can provide food 38:36 until corn gets up growing to where it can, uh, colonize the roots. One, one thing that, uh, temple mentioned, 38:45 he brought in the, the, uh, topic of K If you think about how phosphorus applied, it's always applied with nitrogen, phosphorus 38:58 and what's missing, it's applied with in a very unbalanced scenario. Taking it takes no no account for potassium for any 39:09 of the other nutrients. And that causes a lot of problem in my opinion. Interesting. You know what we're gonna do? 39:17 We're gonna do this again on a different episode and talk about the balanced approach because you just said something really interesting, 39:22 but that's not the topic for this one. So we're gonna do it. You guys don't come back and do one about imal rebalancing, rebalancing your input 39:29 for, because that, that's a very interesting topic. All right, temple, you said it. Trust us. You have a phosphorus availability problem. 39:36 One or two sentences. Get me outta here. Reach out, do your homework. Don't put phosphorus in your, 39:46 in on your soil without treating it. I've said it a million times. I'm gonna say it one more time. 39:52 Do not put any fertility out without some kind of efficiency tool. Make your fertilizer, make every ounce count. 40:02 Got it. It fertilize fertility enhancement. All right, we asked a question. Uh, we didn't ask it. We told you that you have a fer, 40:08 a phosphorus availability problem. Uh, Tommy Roach with Nature's, uh, awesome, awesome friends, uh, of here, extreme Ag. 40:16 Uh, we saw the Commodity Classic and so we also saw James Patterson. He is probably the, 40:21 he's probably the my favorite New Zealander Kiwi as they're called it's ever been on this podcast. Granted, he's the only New Zealander 40:29 I was gonna say. Anyway. He is awesome. And uh, so if you wanna find out more, uh, nature's N-A-C-H-U-R s.com. Is that where they go, Tommy? 40:39 Yes sir. And if they wanna learn more about Agro Tech ussa, Mr. Patterson, where they go, Agritech ussa.com. 40:45 Agro tech usa.com. Till next time, he's James, that's Tommy. And then my man, temple Road from Maryland. 40:51 Uh, my name's Damien Mason and this is Extreme Acts cutting the curve. You wanna take your learning to the next level, 40:56 have direct access to all the trial results that these guys are doing. You know, what, seven $50 a year, seven 50 a year. 41:02 It's a very small investment. You become a member. What do you also get is you get trial results. You get direct access to question answer platforms 41:09 with the guys from Extreme Mag. You know, also you get special promotions sometimes from our business partners like Nature's, they paid all the admission 41:16 to go to Commodity Classic. If you were a member, all that and more, check it out. Go to Extreme mag.farm, hundreds of videos just like this. 41:22 Hundreds of podcasts in the field, all there for you. You don't have to be a member to check that out. Extreme Mag Farm. So next time, thanks for being here. 41:30 That's a wrap for this episode of Cutting the Curve. Make sure to check out Extreme ag.farm for more great content to help you squeeze more profit out 41:38 of your farming operation. Cutting the curve is brought to you by cloth where machines aren't just made, they're made for more. 41:46 Visit cloth.com and start cutting your curve with cutting edge equipment.