Podcast: Manure Magic - Managing Manure for Better Agronomic Outcomes

00:00:00 Manure management for better agronomic outcomes. Is there an option that you can do on your farm using manure instead 00:00:07 of synthetic fertilizer and getting some really good bang for your buck? That's what we're talking about in this episode 00:00:13 of Extreme Ice, cutting the Curve. Welcome To Extreme Ag Cutting the Curve podcast, where real farmers share real insights 00:00:20 and real results to help you improve your farming operation. And now here's your host, Damien Mason. 00:00:28 Hey there. Welcome to another fantastic episode of Extreme Ice Cutting the Curve. I've got a cool episode for you today. 00:00:33 And at first you might say, I'm not sure this applies. I don't have a dairy farm, but you might learn something about agronomics. 00:00:40 You might learn something about manure management might learn how you can use manure as part of your agronomic applications instead of fertilizer. 00:00:47 It can make you a whole bunch of money and improve your asset for the long term. I've got two guests on here, Paul Beyer 00:00:53 with Next Gen Fertilizers out of Ray slash Yuma slash Eastern Colorado. He's a member of Extreme Ag 00:00:59 and we're happy to have him here. And one of his customers, Stratton Craft with Kraft Family Dairies? 00:01:04 No, not the ones that make the cheese, although it's spelled just like that. They are a large scale Eastern Colorado Dairy farm, 00:01:11 milking about 6,700 cows three times a day, 2000 cows in the drag cow pen. And he is also doing the beef on dairy. 00:01:19 Uh, I spoke about that once in my business of Agriculture podcast, if you're bored and wanna learn more about that. 00:01:24 But the point is, he's got a lot of manure with those cows. You got the dry cow pen, you got all the calves 00:01:29 that are coming up, and you've got the 6,700 cows you're milking. It's maybe not all in one place. 00:01:33 I think you said you've got two facilities, uh, Mr. Stratton, is that true? Yep. Yep. So the point is lots and lots of manure. 00:01:40 And so when I was speaking for the Paul's, uh, NextGen fertilizer customer event last week, we were talking about this along with Brian Wa 00:01:49 and, uh, with Agro Liquid. And I said, this is a fascinating topic. 'cause what they discovered was they had way too much manure 00:01:56 in one spot and had been going there for a long time. And that's always been a story, especially in places like dairy farms 00:02:02 where the manure gets hauled out the, uh, the closest place. And that's kind of good. 00:02:08 Like all of a sudden it's like, wow, man, a lot of fertility there. Sometimes too much, sometimes too much phosphates. 00:02:13 So it's really becomes a balancing act. And Paul got involved and took, took care of this. Tell me about the problem. 00:02:18 Uh, a little bit of the history and then a little bit of the problem. So the history and the problem, 00:02:23 and whoever wants to lead off on that, maybe Eric or maybe Stratton you lead off on that. And then we'll go to Paul. 00:02:28 You know, some, some of the issues that we faced in the, in the past, you know, just like what you said is, uh, 00:02:35 we've built up fertility levels that are, uh, awesome, but also sometimes a little bit prohibitive to us. Um, and we have to manage that through 00:02:48 multiple facets, not only through growing crops between alfalfa and corn, which is what we mainly do. Um, and we've also have 00:02:57 to take in consideration our cover crop expenditures on that as well. Um, but also on the dairy side, we have 00:03:06 to stay in compliance with, uh, lots of regulatory agencies that say you can't have you, you have to have 00:03:16 so much storage capacity in order to be able to hold storm events and all this. And you have to, uh, when you do 00:03:24 do a pump down on the liquid side, you have to do it at, at, uh, agronomic rates so that you're not being detrimental 00:03:31 to your, your crops. Um, some of the things that they regulate are not the things that we're actually utilizing crop side, 00:03:42 um, which is very, but Real quick to the, to the person listening, because I mean, there's only what, 00:03:47 33,000 dairy farms in all of the United States America. So it's very likely that the people listen to this aren't dairy farmers. 00:03:54 But from what you're talking about, we talked about capacity, just I'm gonna help fill in here. He's talking about capacity of the manure holding lagoons 00:04:02 or the, the, the catch basins around the dairy facility, which is massively big to milk that many cows 00:04:07 that catch the affluent when you get rain event, which of course they don't get a lot of rain in Ray Colorado, but, um, and then it becomes the regulatory thing. 00:04:16 So you weren't in any way ever out of compliance putting on your stuff out onto the fields, but still over time you get things. 00:04:24 And we talk a lot of extreme ag Kelly Garrett's big thing is I don't think there's soils that are wrong. 00:04:29 I think there's soils that are imbalance. I don't think there's soils that are bad. I think they were soils that are out of balance. 00:04:34 You got out of balance. So I think that's kind of why, where Paul can kick in here and talk about what, what, it was still growing crops. 00:04:42 He was still getting corn to chop for silage. He was still getting alfalfa. What was the problem? Yeah, so when I first started working 00:04:50 with Stratton about three years ago, uh, and, and they're, uh, along with this folks at, uh, at Kraft Family Dairies, we were, uh, you know, 00:04:59 they they came to me and said, here, our goal is to raise 40 ton corn silage, uh, to the acre. And, uh, at, at the time it was not, uh, 00:05:07 it wasn't gonna be feasible due to, uh, a couple different, uh, properties of their soil. 00:05:13 Uh, the biggest one that stuck out to me when I first started working with those, uh, with them was their, their sodium base saturation was high, 00:05:22 their soluble salts was high. And that's, that's one of the main things, uh, you know, I encourage customers 00:05:28 to look at when they're applying manure, especially if it's multiple years in a row of manure, is, hey, it's, it's great fertilizer. 00:05:36 And the nutrients in there, um, are are definitely gonna be, uh, you know, over time released, made available 00:05:43 to the plant, uh, great source of nutrition. And, and a lot of times, especially if you are providing the source, 00:05:49 it's a lot more economical for their farm. Uh, the biggest thing, uh, as I mentioned earlier that we, that we needed to correct was that sodium based saturation 00:06:00 and the, the amount of salt we were actually having, uh, that the, the crop is being forced to, to pull in 00:06:09 with those nutrients. How does the salt get there from manure base? I thought salt was a synthetic fertilizer problem. 00:06:18 Yeah. So there, there's definitely salts and manure as well. Um, I mean, really by definition, fertilizer, 00:06:24 wherever there is, um, you know, nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, there is salt because by definition of fertilizer is a salt, uh, 00:06:31 and it's really no different with manure. Okay. That's an interesting thing I think would surprise most people listening to this. 00:06:37 All right. So Stratton, here's the deal. First off, is this, is this the challenge you put out to this guy that you wanted, 00:06:43 that wanted to do business with you? We want 40 tons of silage. That's like off the charts. Dude. Did you do that just to challenge him 00:06:50 so he would like get in his truck and leave and not come back to the farm? That's like, that's an off the charts number. 00:06:55 I thought like 28 to 30 was a, was a really good number. That, that's about the average. 00:07:00 Um, so I think the 40 10 an acre goal kind of started in boiling around in my brain about probably two years 00:07:08 before I ran into Paul. Um, and I think it came up in the first probably two minutes of, of our introduction and, 00:07:19 and wanting to push the envelope and try to make everything as economically feasible as possible. 00:07:27 Yeah, we typically around our neck of the woods, we're running 28, 30 ton an acre silage. Um, but if you can push 00:07:38 that up over a period of time, you know, it's not gonna be an overnight deal. Mm-Hmm. There's a lot of change in management that has 00:07:45 to happen on pretty well everybody's farms in order to be able to get to those, those points. But if you do the math and you 00:07:55 and I can add three ton an acre Yep. And my neighbor can add three ton an acre pretty soon. I don't have to take down as many acres. Yeah. 00:08:04 I'm taking down fewer acres with more profitable tons. Yeah. For both myself and the farmer. 00:08:10 And you're also looking at high quality feed. Now the stretch is in Paul, I believe it was a three year time period from when we 00:08:20 started working to with each other, to where we hit 39 and a half ton. So equivalence, you're right around a full, 00:08:29 full farm was 310 bushel if you calculated it to that realm of things. Yeah. Because the person's listening to this 00:08:37 that doesn't do silage is saying, well, what's that mean for me? Well, 39 bush, 39 ton silage, 00:08:42 if you were compar doing a comparative, which is not an exact exact comparative, but it's over 300 bushel corn. 00:08:50 So this all matters. And you did that by, did you do that by adding more manure or changing how you did the manure? 00:08:57 And I want Paul to kick in on here because I remember the presentation I sat through last week. We talked about, uh, it's not, remember, most farmers 00:09:06 want to just pour it on. Right? What's the, what's, what did we talk about that? Uh, more is better, right? What's, what's the word, Paul? 00:09:13 A moron farmer put more on, put more on, put more on, Exactly. Yeah. So, uh, the first thing I wanted, wanted 00:09:22 to implement on their farm is, is actually less manure. So, and, and because of the sodium and the salt that we had, uh, the amount 00:09:30 that we were forcing that crop to intake, we were actually hurting, uh, tonnage. And so first thing I wanted to do was pull the manure out 00:09:39 for a couple years on the fields where we had, uh, very high, uh, fertility, uh, levels and high sodium. And then second was, uh, let's see, let's see what we can do 00:09:49 to, uh, increase drainability, uh, balance our soils, get that calcium and magnesium, uh, ratio correct. 00:09:58 So that our soils are draining properly. And, uh, it's so that we can start leaching some of these salts out, uh, 00:10:05 and get them outta that root, uh, that root zone. Uh, so we're not being detrimental to our crops, uh, in that sense. 00:10:13 And then the next thing was let's the manure that we are still applying on these fields with, with, with lower levels, uh, let's treat, let's add in, uh, 00:10:22 you know, a biological product, something to stabilize those nutrients, uh, into the lagoon. Uh, let's, let's see what we can do to make that, uh, the, 00:10:32 the nutrition and the manure more Plan. You, I want you to do, I, I, I'm, I'm, I know interrupting, 00:10:38 I get yelled at by the extreme ag guys, we interrupt them. But I do it because I try to always make sure 00:10:43 that we're giving stuff in bite size and 'cause something's very familiar to you guys might not be as familiar to somebody that's in, you know, 00:10:50 Tennessee that's listening to this. Uh, because they, first off you said you reduced manure that would go counter to what most people think 00:10:57 because that's, you know, most people's like poured on, poured on. You did that because you thought you were over 00:11:02 fertilized or you thought it was the balance? Was it the, was it too much stuff or was it trying to correct a balance? 00:11:09 Uh, it varied field by field. For the most part. It was too much, uh, too much salt and, and sodium where was by far the biggest factor. 00:11:18 Okay. And then you talked about adding a product that's something that most people wouldn't think of. In other words, you can enhance, you can amend, 00:11:24 you can amend liquid manure. 'cause this is all going on liquid, correct? Yeah. Out of, out of, uh, out of slurry pits, lagoons, 00:11:33 I don't know what you wanna call 'em out there, but you amended that by adding a product into the lagoon. Yes, Paul. 00:11:39 Correct. Okay. What's the product? Um, so we, we actually tried a couple different one, uh, a couple different products. 00:11:48 One of them is called Waste Way from Prime Dirt. Uh, and, and really the concept behind this product is to, uh, introduce biology into that lagoon 00:11:57 that will break down a lot of the solids, uh, within that manure to get it more in a liquid form, and also more, uh, more consistent throughout 00:12:06 that whole, that whole lagoon. Um, uh, when you're, when you're talking about, uh, stratton's, uh, dairy lagoons, you, 00:12:13 how many million gallons do they hold? Stratton? I mean, this, this isn't a small, a small, uh, uh, holding system. 00:12:21 Uh, each lagoons anywhere between 24 to 36 million gallons. So, so you're talking, which, 00:12:31 which we efficiently unload in about 15 to 20 days. Yeah. Yeah. So 2020 4 million gallon. 00:12:38 It's bigger than, it's bigger than your average above ground pool. Uh, okay. So, so 24 million gallons. 00:12:44 So the pro, I mean, you're, you walking around the edge dumping a a, a pint in this? Or how are you doing this, Paul? 00:12:50 How are you amending that lagoon? Yeah, so the first year we started using that product, uh, we actually injected it into the line, uh, 00:13:00 that is pumping out the, uh, lagoon, uh, the liquid manure, um, on its way to the field. The difficult part with that was, is we couldn't shut the, 00:13:14 the injector off when we were slowing down on pumping, or if we had to blow out, there always had to be somebody there. 00:13:22 So that became very problematic system-wise, because some places you had more waste away in other places you'd have a little bit less. 00:13:30 That became a little bit of a problem. And we ran that product for a year, uh, on, on that system. Alright. Were the immediate, were the results immediate? 00:13:43 Uh, 'cause we think about agronomics, I mean, I sit through agronomic things and I record all these episodes for extreme ag. 00:13:50 You know, you're not gonna change that soil overnight. You've got things that have been going on for a hundreds of years. 00:13:54 You got farming practices that have been going on for, uh, at least tens of years. 00:14:00 Did you see, did you see a result pretty immediately? You did on yield, obviously in three years, you went from 28, uh, tons to 39 and a half. 00:14:08 Did you see any changes to the soil itself, either of you? Y yeah, I, I don't know that I really saw much of a change 00:14:17 to the soil itself. Uh, I, I would say, yeah, I mean, easily by year two, I could see a difference walking those 00:14:23 fields, uh, in the summer. And, and really it went down to the spots where we had pale yellow corn, those spots, you know, 00:14:30 by year two we're getting a lot smaller. And by year three, we were raising just as good of a corn there in, in that, in that high sodium 00:14:38 or that high pH area as we were across the field. So we really improved. I, what, what I think we did to increase that, uh, you know, 00:14:47 that average yield, that tonnage was we, we increased our, our our worst parts, parts in the field to bring that average up, which I think, uh, a lot 00:14:57 of farmers would agree that's probably easy, easier, uh, more easily attained than, uh, yeah. Bumping your ear. 00:15:05 I, I want to hear, I I want to hear how the average person can do this, and then I wanna talk about is manure an option 00:15:12 for other people if they're not dairy farmers? And then, uh, more importantly, I wanna talk about the, where this thing goes on the, uh, 00:15:19 agronomic outcomes you want to get to. Before I do that, uh, while we're talking about fertility, I want to tell you about our friend. 00:15:24 And Nature's, nature's is one of the business partners we have here at Extreme Ag. They're focused on providing sustainable farming solutions 00:15:30 and helping maintain your crop's genetic potential. When you think about it, we got this huge, huge, uh, prediction that we're gonna have down to farm income, 00:15:40 40% off of 2022, the record high. And we got inputs that are still hanging around at the same price, roughly. 00:15:47 If that's the case, you need to maximize every dollar you have to spend. That's why we're talking to guys like Stratton 00:15:53 and Paul right here about fertility and using an alternative source like manure. But you know what you can also use, 00:15:58 this is a flinging out a bunch of dry np and K you can use stuff like nature's product. Nature's is a powered by a buyer. 00:16:04 Nature's bio K can be targeted at specific periods of influence throughout the growing season via precision placement techniques, as a means to mitigate plant stress 00:16:11 and enhance crop yield and boost your farm's. ROI. All right. Um, the yields changed pre remarkably, 00:16:21 and you did that by cutting back a manure and putting an amendment in it. Now it sounds like if you're cutting back on the manure, 00:16:26 you've got more, more manure, you've got manure to go with other places. So all of a sudden, did you start taking 00:16:32 manure to other fields? Uh, or, or did you sell it? What happened? If you're using less to correct some imbalances, 00:16:40 what'd you do with the rest of the manure? Uh, cows Didn't stop pooping, I assume the cows kept pooping. 00:16:45 No. So you still had that, okay. No, yeah, cow cows kept doing their thing. Um, you know, we've always sent some of that liquid 00:16:55 or dry product from the dairies out to other, other farms. Uh, we probably do a, uh, probably a fair 00:17:05 15 mile diameter between liquid and, and solid. The, the liquid side we're kind of curtailed down to about an eight acre or an eight mile, uh, diameter. Um, 00:17:17 Just because, just because it's a lot of volume to move and you use, use pipes and pump it. Yeah, so, so we dragline, uh, dragline all 00:17:26 of our liquid manure at this point. We used to do it in trucks, which there were some other issues compaction wise and, 00:17:33 and whatnot, which we were probably a lot in that regard. We were probably better off, off truck wise 00:17:41 to be applying it because you weren't putting it down at the rates that you were capable 00:17:45 of putting it down in a timeframe. So truck wise, 130 acre farm took nine, 10 days, uh, at about a 9,000 gallon rate, uh, per acre. 00:17:57 And we can roll in with a dragline crew, and we can do 130 acres in eight to 10 hours and be running 00:18:08 a 23, 20 5,000 gallon an acre situation. So we're, we're writing that, uh, 250, 300 pounds of nitrogen that we're applying for first year availability. 00:18:20 You're gonna get some layover that comes in the next couple of years, but you can build 00:18:25 that fertility up very, very quickly. So yeah, we've had to go some other places with it. Paul, I got a question here. 00:18:33 Um, you kind of cut your own throat. You're in the business of selling fertilizer and you made, you made fertilizer less necessary 00:18:39 as a product to buy for Stratton. So essentially, um, you just, you just went out there, you just went out there and made it. 00:18:47 So you, you just, uh, you found a customer that this, that and then made him not a customer. 00:18:53 Yeah, well, uh, essentially, uh, you know, you gotta work with your customer's best interest in mind so that, 00:19:00 you know, he, he had, uh, he, he has all this manure already. He's got the source. He is the source. 00:19:05 And so, uh, utilizing that on his farm makes more sense economically for him. Uh, and, uh, manure is a great, uh, fertility source. 00:19:15 I mean, there's really is, yeah, sometimes that might be hard to say for, uh, fertilizer salesman, but, uh, no, it, it really is. 00:19:22 Uh, and you get a lot of other benefits from the manure as well. Um, yeah, Let's talk about that because I, 00:19:28 I think I want a guy like you that's the, in the fertilizer agronomic stuff, uh, I mean, I, I get dairy manure put on my farm, 00:19:37 and that's one of the reasons I have the tenant that I have because I, this farm, uh, it's got some sand. 00:19:43 It's, it's had some mistreatment over its history. Um, and organic matter tilth speak to some of those things, Paul. 00:19:54 Yeah. So one of the biggest things in manure that you will get is that contribution to organic matter. And really that's coming from a lot of the biology, uh, 00:20:03 you're getting in that manure. Uh, although, uh, it's somewhat unstable until it is in the ground, uh, the amount of biology that, 00:20:11 uh, can actually persist on living. And then in that soil, uh, really works, works together with the microorganisms that are already in your soil, uh, 00:20:21 to help reduce, uh, or help release a lot of these nutrients that, uh, wouldn't otherwise be made plant available. Mm-Hmm. 00:20:29 Tilth organic matter. Tilth, I mean, your, your ground gets a, it, it works better, it feels better, uh, after years of manure. 00:20:38 Am I wrong about that? No, no. I, I would say that's correct. And it, I, I think probably one of the things that's unique 00:20:46 with Stratton's operation is that, uh, where he is injecting that he's also disturbing the soil through tillage, uh, 00:20:54 since he's applying this manure through rip injection. And I don't think that has been very detrimental to his farm, um, especially 00:21:02 where he's got higher magnesium soils. He's wanting to break up, uh, some of that compaction. He's got choppers 00:21:08 and silage trucks driving on this, uh, you know, driving on over these fields year after year. Uh, so a lot of, a lot of heavy machinery 00:21:17 and, uh, no doubt we've seen kind of the combination between the manure and the, uh, and the tillage application of the ripping, uh, 00:21:25 actually help loosen up that soil and, and promote really good root growth throughout The year. So there's 00:21:30 the, to, to the agronomic person that says, wait a minute, I've heard before that, you know, excess tillage. 00:21:35 First off, it could be create erosion, which you don't have hills. Uh, and if you're not, we do when you're in the wind. 00:21:41 So, so to put the manure to get the max, most max to maximize your manure contribution, it's better if it gets incorporated 00:21:49 and is put in the ground Yes. Versus on top y. Yeah. Uh, well, yes and no. So if you're putting it in the ground, 00:21:58 you're gonna lose less of the nitrogen that you're applying for because you're not gonna have the gas off. 00:22:05 Also, two, you're getting, so when you go and spread standard dry manure, it's going on top. So all that organic matter that it's being contributing 00:22:15 to the farms is staying on top. It's gonna stay in that top six inches or so. Um, if it gets down there with the rip injection, 00:22:24 we're going 12, 12 to 15 inches deep. So we're filling that whole profile from, from ground level down to 15, 00:22:33 and we're putting very small particles in there. Um, that's adding to that organic matter farther down than what you're gonna traditionally get with 00:22:45 standard tillage over a period of time. And the one major product that no commercial fertilizer company in the world 00:22:54 that I know of can sell you is organic map. Yeah. Right. So, um, when we're talking about, uh, the, the way of doing this, Paul, I I, is there a detriment? 00:23:10 I mean, you are, you are doing the tillage, uh, there, there's be someone make an argument, you're compacting by going out there, you know, you take a tanker, uh, or, 00:23:19 or, you know, or just the heavy equipment if you're doing a drag line and you could be compacting, 00:23:24 but you're kind of making up for that with the improved agronomics, I think. Am I right? 00:23:30 Correct. Yeah, I, I definitely believe so. Um, the, the other thing Stratton has, uh, as advantage on his farm is irrigation. 00:23:38 So you mentioned earlier we don't get very much rainfall, uh, and that's absolutely correct. 00:23:43 So the ability to, uh, to water after, uh, you know, be before and after these applications also, uh, help a lot of those nutrients, uh, you know, if there is some on top, 00:23:55 uh, get into the soil and, uh, the ability to water in season also helps him, uh, you know, kind of regulate how much salt is in 00:24:05 that root zone in that rhizosphere. Good. And, and, and one of the things too, since we've gone down this path with Paul, 00:24:15 is we've actually started irrigating less, we've started applying less water throughout the growing season than what we haven't in, in years past 00:24:25 before we started getting into this with Paul, is we've actually become a lot better with our organic matter in our profile to be able to hold 00:24:34 that water longer so that we're not utilizing, or we're not using the water overly and we're not drowning things out. 00:24:43 We're actually being a lot more regulatory on, on our plant health. And I think that the big look at this is 00:24:52 dairy manure is not the full answer. Hog manure isn't the full answer. Manure in general isn't the full answer. 00:25:00 You have to look at this as an entirely systems approach, which is why we've added some of the products in 00:25:05 that we have and changed some of the management that we have. If you're listening to this, I'm cheering with High Fives 00:25:13 because Stratton unprompted just use the word systems approach. If you listen to extreme ag stuff, 00:25:19 you hear it from Kelly Garrett, you hear it from Lee Lubert, you hear it from Matt Miles, 00:25:23 you hear it from our guys systems approach, systems approach. And he just did that unprompted anyway. 00:25:28 Um, there's a big one right there you just talked about, and I don't know how many of, uh, extreme ag listeners, 00:25:33 I know we got Nelson's out in Western Oklahoma. Water's an issue, and I talked about it when I did my speech for, uh, Paul's meeting. 00:25:41 The economics of water are gonna become, it's already been a political hot potato for years. Water, it's gonna be more. 00:25:47 So, and then there's the economics of it. You just said something really important. You know, the regulatory environment's gonna change. 00:25:53 And, you know, you live in an area in the High Plains where, you know, you don't, you don't, you don't get a lot of rain. 00:25:58 Um, you just made it so you can use less water. And everybody's saying, well, that's 'cause that manure putting on liquid 00:26:04 manure is all full of moisture. Well, that's, that's a little bit, but the real big thing is 00:26:08 by improving the organic matter down through the profile, you've got more moisture holding capacity. 00:26:13 There's a stat about that, and maybe Paul remembers it, by each percent of gain 00:26:20 and organic matter in your soil, water holding capacity is like, I dunno, a number of inches. Do you know what I'm talking about, Paul? 00:26:27 Yeah, I do. And it, it varies by other soil properties, but, uh, I mean, typically you can figure, you know, an inch, an inch of water holding capacity per percent 00:26:37 of organic matter. And then the other thing is, uh, when we were at your meeting and Brian Wall was up there, I think we talked about, uh, 00:26:46 how pH levels changed throughout the soil profile. Organic matter changes also at the first two inches. It's one thing, but then down here could be another thing. 00:26:55 Tell me how that matters. Uh, is, is, is Stratton doing it right by their usage of manure and their management 00:27:03 to get organic matter throughout the profile? Yeah, I, I think so. And it also helps, you know, if if we, if he were banding 00:27:13 that all within, let's say the top three or four inches when he's putting that seed in the ground in the spring, then 00:27:19 that it's gonna be subject to a lot more salt, a lot, lot higher concentration of salt. Uh, and so I, I think, you know, there it's kind 00:27:28 of a twofold, um, you know, benefit where you're getting, you're, you're spreading out the salt, uh, 00:27:33 but you're also building your whole profile. So, I mean, 'cause roots don't just grow at, you know, three or four inches roots are, uh, you know, in, in Stratton's 00:27:42 where we've done, uh, root digs and, and also done some, uh, root pits, uh, you know, you'll you'll see roots growth, uh, you know, 00:27:50 down to four or five feet. Yeah. Well, and, and there's probably, I i, is there anything that you can do manure management or 00:27:58 otherwise to change what happens at four feet? I don't know if we're really, we don't have much impact on that, do we? 00:28:03 Well, you, you kind of do. Um, so one of the interesting things that we've looked at, um, is you just brought up pH the water 00:28:14 pH of our irrigation water is running around eight eight to 8.9 pH. Our liquid manure that we're applying is a six seven. 00:28:27 So we're actually slightly detrimental with the, the pH adding on the irrigation, your Irrigation slightly 8.9. 00:28:38 Um, they, they, they would, they would, they would haul out men in hazmat suits in a, in a, some sort of a government agency in Indiana, 00:28:47 if we found 8.9 phs around where I am. Uh, we just don't have such things Text test your drinking water, 00:28:55 You think it is. Uh, well, we, we run on a, a quality water system, um, for all of our drinking water here in, in, in county. 00:29:06 And one of those lab samples is 8.9. Yeah. You know what, and, and we're, we're, lime we're a lot of limestone around where I am. 00:29:14 Is that, uh, would that, uh, would, would that be, uh, contributed to that? I imagine it would. Yes, 00:29:20 Possibly. But we're on, we're on the beaches of, of northeastern Colorado. We're all blow sand for the vast majority of it. 00:29:27 We got some heavy clay bottom where the old river beds were, but we got a lot of blow sand off the ancient, uh, lake beds 00:29:34 that were eroded out. And then you had the, the whole dirty thirties, um, that created a lot of those, uh, large deposits of 00:29:44 that, that finer sand. Didn't know people your age still even knew about the dirty thirties. 00:29:49 I I mean, that's ancient history, talking to two guys. Well, in order to understand where you're at, you gotta understand the history. 00:29:55 Like, you know, everybody, well, I'm not gonna say everybody, A lot of people think that manure is bad in, in the grand scheme of things. 00:30:05 They have this thought out that, that manure is a villain. We are, what we're doing 00:30:11 with manure at this point in time is we are keeping local buffalo herds, per se. The buffalo used to run 00:30:19 around the planes all over the place. Yeah, right. And up in Iowa and Indiana, and they were pooping and peeing and everything else. 00:30:25 And that's why you have some of the tall and short grass prairies that are as beautiful as they are. A lot of that is because of the historical manure 00:30:34 that wasn't necessarily managed by a person, but by cattle or by buffalo. Yeah. All we're doing is we're keeping it local 00:30:42 and we're trying to grow a higher profit, higher consumptive crop than what the buffalo needed on the short 00:30:51 and tall grass prairies. Technically they're bison, American bison, not buffalo. But anyway, I, um, I like it. Alright, so here, here's the 00:30:58 Thing's. Fair enough. Um, what you, what what you're talking about here is something that I've heard, that I've heard. 00:31:04 I was, I've, I always, I speak at ag conferences and I said, so do use manure. Oh no. And it was always this thing. 00:31:11 Well, I said, you're in upstate New York and you're, and you're trying to push high yield. You've got all those dairies. I can surprise you. 00:31:17 Don't try and broker a deal on their manure. Well, I don't want the compaction Well, that introduce, that introduces weed seeds. 00:31:23 I've heard all this thing You're talking about a an affordable source of fertility, especially when farm economics are gonna be a little bit 00:31:33 at break even, maybe. Um, I don't understand the detriment. I mean, I'm all about it. I, I, I, I mean, I've, I've, 00:31:42 I've got a tenant because of it, so I, I'm, it's all there. So Paul, give me your thoughts. 00:31:46 Your, there's a bunch of huge dairies. There's also huge feed yards up where you are your, your thoughts on managing manure 00:31:54 for better agronomic outcomes. That's why we titled this. So give me your thoughts. What does that person need to know? 00:31:59 What's the big takeaways here? Strategist gave us his, he compared it to the American bison. 00:32:05 Yeah, I mean, we, we've seen it, uh, you know, multiple years, uh, in my short career so far. My, my young short career, uh, where the, 00:32:15 the input, uh, side, uh, side of agriculture, uh, with, whether it's fertilizer or herbicides, fuel prices, whatever, whatever that, 00:32:25 whatever is driving that high input cost. Manure has always been a good, uh, kind of a good fallback on, uh, 00:32:31 where in the past it's been very affordable. Um, I, I think Stratton could probably make a comment on how, uh, it, it's too affordable to other farmers 00:32:39 because the, the good that you can provide with manure, uh, a lot of times, uh, farmers are not recognizing, uh, 00:32:47 and not willing to pay for the manure and the nutrients, like what they would be getting if they were 00:32:52 to buy the fertilizer with the synthetic fertilizer, with the same analysis. So, uh, yeah, the, the, the biggest thing, and, 00:32:59 and we kind of brushed over this on, on the water, uh, efficiency side. Uh, but if you have high sodium soils, you, 00:33:07 you're actually gonna inhibit that plant's ability to drink in the water. Uh, so that was the other reason we're, we're, um, you know, 00:33:14 we ended up decreasing the amount of water Stratton had to apply, uh, because we got our soil, soil back in balance. Uh, I'm, there's a lot of soils out there, uh, that, 00:33:26 that I've seen would benefit from manure, not just from the organic, uh, matter standpoint, uh, but guys are going out 00:33:32 and spinning, uh, you know, hundreds of dollars an acre on, uh, oh, 60 or, or phosphorus, uh, you know, spreading map 00:33:43 and, you know, nitrogen and phosphorus and potassium are, uh, you know, typically in most manure, those are the three highest, uh, nutrients in that. 00:33:52 So can definitely be utilized to provide, uh, the nutrients for that crop. Um, and, and, and for multiple years too. 00:33:59 Not, not just one growing season. Excellent. Several points. I appreciate it. Here's the thing that I wanna throw out there. 00:34:05 We know about people buying chicken litter. That's that. It happens by me. I've got a big couple 00:34:09 of poultry companies within, uh, you know, 20 miles of my farm. Uh, it used to be they gave it away. 00:34:15 It used to be they said, in fact, I, I met them and they said, come and get it. And, uh, 00:34:19 and now it's, uh, with, with increased fertility prices a few years ago, or a lack of availability 00:34:24 during the supply chain disruptions, we started about chicken litter. And there's a lot of people Maryland 00:34:29 where my friend Temple Roads is down in the south, Matt and Chad, and then, uh, you know, less over where Kevin is. Um, there's this thing about buying chicken litter, 00:34:38 but there's, there's a lot of that. Nobody's really talking about buying dairy manure. But before we hit record, I asked Stratton about that. 00:34:45 I said, do you get approached, there's some grain farmer within, uh, five miles, 10 miles to you that says, Hey man, 00:34:51 I'll buy truckloads of, uh, dairy manure and it'll be based on the, uh, fertility analysis. What's, where, where are we on that, 00:34:59 Uh, we have charged for it in the past. Um, part of the issue is, uh, and I'm kind of gonna throw Paul A. Little bit under the 00:35:09 bus, I guess, or fertilizer guys in general. Uh, commercial guys is Not him. He's, 00:35:15 he's different. We like it. We like it. Paul, I have gone back and forth on this before. So here, here's the reality of the situation. 00:35:25 If you as a farmer had to pay commercially what liquid manure is worth, you couldn't afford it, we have to have a place to go 00:35:37 with it in order to stay in compliance. Um, we also have to manage our farms properly so that we have feed and everything else for our cattle. 00:35:48 Um, so there's, there's this balancing act. Um, I had, uh, a liquid manure samples back in 2019 that I sent over to the local, uh, fertilizer co-op 00:36:00 before I started working with Paul. And I had 'em price it out. And at that time, 00:36:06 the one thing they couldn't figure in was the organic matter, because nobody sells it besides us. Yeah. And from the fertility standpoint, 00:36:15 it was like 24, 25 bucks a gallon. Well, when you're putting on somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 to 30,000 gallons an acre, 00:36:26 you can't afford it on 130 acre farm. You can't really afford it on a single acre. Um, there are some huge benefits and just, 00:36:35 but just like everything else, there are drawbacks and add-ons from both sides, whether it's commercial fertilizer 00:36:44 or from, from manure in whatever situation you're in, whether it's chicken or hogs or dairy. Um, part of the other reality of the situation 00:36:55 that's coming down the pipeline pretty quickly within the next three or four years is that dairy manure, uh, at least for us, 00:37:06 we're, what we're working on with, uh, some of the local universities is actually doing a nutrient recovery system 00:37:15 and bag bottle pelletized, NPK and all the micros and, and, and make, make it so that we can actually 00:37:26 make potable water, but also be able to sell as organic fertilizer Yeah. In the right quantities and, and, 00:37:34 and also go down that route of keeping all of our soils in balance. The one, the one thing that is very 00:37:42 interesting is all of the universities wanna throw out all the organic matter. They say, oh, it's not worth nothing. Mm-Hmm. 00:37:52 Well, that, that actually is probably the most profitable part of Yeah. 00:37:56 Liquid manure is the organic matter. Yeah. So, uh, Paul, do you see a future where somebody like you that's in the fertility business, um, 00:38:08 partners with somebody like Stratton and makes this kind of thing happen? Hey, let's take this product, 00:38:13 we'll sell it liquid within 30 miles. Um, we'll dehydrate off the water and then that way you've got a water problem. 00:38:20 Now we just helped you with that. You take off the water and then put it back out. Uh, Stratton you use that for your irrigation, 00:38:27 and then these dries get bulked, bagged, whatever, and shipped. It seems to me that that's 00:38:35 should be happening, but it's not. Yeah. There, there actually are a few dairies across the country that are already doing this. 00:38:42 So I, I definitely see this, uh, It's not happening at big scale yet, right? No, I don't, I don't think so. 00:38:49 Um, and, and that, that's probably one of the barriers to entry, uh, is that it's a lot of infrastructure, a lot of upfront costs to be able to, uh, yeah, put, 00:38:59 put the manure into a, into a product, uh, that's easily, you know, bought at your, whether it's 00:39:04 for your garden at a local grocery store or ma um, or, or a hardware store or, uh, you know, tr truckload at a coop Over somebody farming 5,000 acres that's, uh, that's wants 00:39:15 to try different nutrients. It seems to me there's a big benefit. Why is it, is it just it? 00:39:20 I think it's because we've, we've not thought manure, we've treated, we've treated manure like crap for so long. I think is part of the reason it's not, nobody's thought 00:39:29 through the whole value added as, uh, Stratton does. He's, he might be a little biased. He started to put out there $40,000, uh, uh, you know, 00:39:37 hundreds of thousands of dollars per acre is what it's worth. I think he's, I think that theory 00:39:41 of negotiation Paul start really outrageous and hope that somewhere you meet down here, is that what he is doing? 00:39:48 So, so here, here's actually what I would check. I I would challenge every, every fertilizer company in the world. 00:39:57 He's getting serious, he's getting a sharpie out, he's getting a sharpie out on camera, shaking a sharpie at us. 00:40:03 I, I would challenge every fertility company, whether they're a co-op, uh, just a straight up dealer, a manufacturer, whatever. 00:40:12 Um, in fact, Nutrien has a lovelin product called Accomplish lm guess where that's made from that is straight up dairy manure 00:40:22 that has been refined down and you buy it in a two and a half gallon jug. But I would challenge every single 00:40:29 fertility company in the world to go and get dairy samples, hog samples, chicken litter samples, heck even down to, to horse dropping samples 00:40:40 and price that out for what you could do on the commercial side. And you'll find out that manure is exceptionally expensive 00:40:50 or an exceptional profit zone, especially if you can, uh, upgrade it to where it's in individual nutrients. 00:40:58 But the one part that they're gonna have to start putting a value on is the organic matter that you get with the liquid manure and manure in general. 00:41:07 But that would be my challenge to every fertility outfit out there is go and price it. Find out what your product's really worth compared 00:41:16 to that application. So Paul, he's to the person Listen to this. Okay, go ahead. Oh, I was just gonna add on Damien, one 00:41:23 of the main problems that that would solve for the farmer, and it definitely would've helped Stratton in his case, is 00:41:31 that we're applying all these nutrients because in the manure, 'cause we have to have it, there's no way 00:41:36 to split 'em out when you're, when you're actually taking that liquid manure, separating it out into dry 00:41:42 or liquid products, then you can pick and choose, this is how much nitrogen I need, this is how much phosphorus I need, instead of just throwing out. 00:41:49 Because then you're really withheld on, you know, what can I hold the least amount of and that's how much manure I have to apply. 00:41:57 Don't you think that, first off, it's not always consistent. You know, strategists reference everything from chicken 00:42:03 litter to, uh, hog to dairy, and then you talk about horses. If you're so desperate, you need to go 00:42:10 and talk to horse people. He should probably culture, Hey, they're a contributor too, man. 00:42:15 Let's face it. Horse people are, horse people are screwy. Alright, so the other thing is, um, 00:42:21 it's not necessarily consistent, which is one of the things, and then it's, it's got a, it's got a reputation of being, 00:42:26 uh, somehow bad for some people. I've never understood that because I'm a dairy farm kid. And then it's also got the lack of convenience. 00:42:34 So I think those are the three things that work against it. But the way, Paul, you're not quite as gungho as Stratton. 00:42:40 I mean, he's over here trying to sell, you know, uh, 10, $10 million worth of manure. 00:42:44 But, but you and I are both in agreement. This is something that managed correctly can have huge agronomic positives, 00:42:52 Correct? Yeah. 00:42:53.735 --> 00:42:54.415 So what does the person closing notes here, the person listen this, what do they need 00:42:58 to know if they want to incorporate manure into their system? First off, they gotta find a source then what? 00:43:05 Yeah. Yeah. Find the source and then, uh, yeah, just work with an, work with your local agronomist. 00:43:10 Uh, make, make sure that you don't get anything out of whack by applying too much. 00:43:14 Uh, because that is a multi-year process to fix, uh, a lot easier to mess soils up than it is to fix them. But it's usually takes multiple years of, of over applying 00:43:24 to get out of whack. I mean, one application every couple of years is probably difficult to get. 00:43:31 I mean, usually isn't it a history of really big applications that get it outta whack, Paul? Yeah, most of the time. A lot, a lot of times, you know, 00:43:39 the application, uh, limit is kind of protects us from over-applying in a single season. Yeah. How, however, you know, Midwest labs, uh, 00:43:50 in their agronomy handbook will talk a lot about, you know, how much salt we should be putting out there per year. 00:43:55 Uh, and they, they limit that at 500 pounds. So, and, and it varies by the manure. So getting that manure test is a good first step, uh, 00:44:03 you know, to understand what you're applying out there. And, uh, you know, in Stratton's scenario with his manure, that 500 pound of salt per acre limit would actually be 00:44:13 around that eight to 9,000 gallons per acre. So you could overly in one year It did seem like he was a little crazy 00:44:21 and he kept saying 24,000 gallons per acre of liquid application. My guy puts on one third of that. 00:44:27 Is he is, is he, is he doing, is he overdoing a strat? Are you overdoing it? No. In, in fact, if you, if you did the math on, on the, 00:44:37 the sodium test, I'll back, back Paul off a little bit. If you do the, the sodium look at, on our liquid samples that we're applying right now, we're applying about 166 00:44:47 pounds of salt for 250 pounds of first year available nitrogen. Okay? So really actually not that bad. 00:44:57 So if you map that out, you're looking at a teaspoon per square foot or per cubic foot, um, you know, I've had that po that question po to me quite a bit on, 00:45:10 you know, oh, the salt content's too high, the salt content's too high. If on that same challenge that I'd throw out 00:45:18 for the fertility guys, build what manure has as a commercial product and you, I guarantee you'll have more salt in 00:45:28 because I, I've, I've, I've run down that trial with some other co-ops, um, and the, the, I guess I'd say the, 00:45:39 the down the, the down beating on, on manure or making it out to be, uh, an evil villain on the salt side is quite frankly unfounded. 00:45:50 Um, in a, in a large scale. I think that it also does depend on what the beginning source is. 00:45:57 So how we feed our livestock, our cattle, maybe some totally different from somebody else. If somebody else is putting in salt amendments into their 00:46:08 feed, there's a good possibility that they're gonna have a higher salt content. Alright? So all manure, all manure is not created equal. 00:46:16 Uh, we know that from species to species, but also region to region and also what the diet is. And then, hey Paul, I gotta give you last word. 00:46:25 You put out the warning about salt and then Stratton jumped on you. You know what, he's one of those farmers that looks forward 00:46:31 to the fertilizer, uh, salesman pulling in the, the drives. I bet he, I bet he has a list. 00:46:37 That's why he has that sharpie. He has that list made. Hell, Yes, I do Something I'm gonna pounce on Paul about 00:46:43 the next time I see him. Anyway. You get last words since you, since, since you're my client. 00:46:49 What do I Yeah, no issues. Closing, closing thoughts on manure management, by the way. Well, I like Stratton. He's not easy to, like, 00:46:55 during my presentation, he stood in the background, uh, in the back of the room, but at least he was drinking Coors banquets. 00:47:01 So I thought, okay, this guy might be alright. Anyway, so you get last word. What do I need to know? Get me outta here managing manure 00:47:08 for better agronomic outcomes you already gave me. Watch out for the salt. Get the watch out for the salt. Uh, get the, the, the fertility, the, the fertility of the, 00:47:17 the product test at which not always gonna be the same. It could change from like, like Shannon said, diet, maybe one year they're feeding this 00:47:24 and then they had to change the rations, whatever. Okay, that's, what else do I need to know? Uh, yeah, I think, uh, you know, with, with some 00:47:32 of the newer technology, uh, variable rate applications, uh, make a a ton of economic sense, especially on, uh, on years 00:47:40 where profits are, are slimmed up for farmers. So variable Rate application for synthetic is easy variable 00:47:45 rate for manure. Can I do that? Yeah. Yep. There you can still create variable rate maps. Uh, and it, it really goes back to the concept of, you know, 00:47:56 not, not every, uh, spot in that field is the exact same. So you need to be treating it differently, uh, 00:48:02 treat treating it accordingly. So that was, uh, uh, something else, uh, you know, Stratton's incorporated across his whole farm, 00:48:09 but also within, uh, individual fields, if there's certain spots we need to not apply manure, uh, because we're afraid of getting too much salt 00:48:17 and maybe there's other areas in that field where we can apply more, uh, and still, still stay below that threshold. 00:48:25 All right. Closing thought. Closing question. Should more farmers incorporate manure into their farming operation? 00:48:34 I say absolutely, yes. That's how it was 100 years ago. We talk about regenerative, regenerative is got an animal livestock, 00:48:41 uh, contribution to it. I say it's what we need to get back to. It's just gonna be modernized of 00:48:47 what we did a hundred years ago. I say absolutely. Tell me, am I right? Yeah, yeah, you are. 00:48:55 And I guess the the regenerative side of things is you're not looking at the quote unquote, uh, cattle on the same property that you're farming now. 00:49:09 It's all right, livestock are removed, so we we can't actually manage it a lot better than we have in the past. 00:49:16 And by masks, you know, once you get into the large scales, you're oftentimes a lot more efficient. 00:49:23 And that completing that cycle with the feed, with the, with the ground, with the, with the cattle and reapplying that manure, um, 00:49:34 there are benefits all the way around, just like everything else. There's a drawback somewhere. Yeah, 00:49:39 There's a drawback, there's a management to it, which is why we talk about management. Paul, is there, uh, 00:49:43 and is is probably hard for a fertilizer, uh, vendor to say should, should manure be part of more farming operations, 00:49:50 uh, total agronomic, uh, strategy? Yeah, absolutely. Across my geography, um, we, we really have a whole array of, uh, you know, different soil types 00:50:03 and a lot of what we work with in northeast Colorado, uh, especially as you go east of Strat where, 00:50:08 where Stratton's at is very light sand deer, uh, CDC soils, uh, you know, three to five. So very, um, light soils 00:50:18 that would benefit just from the holding capacity, uh, benefit from the manure and definitely would like to see those guys, uh, 00:50:25 apply some that aren't. Uh, there's, there's a lot of guys that aren't, you know, we have a lot of feedlots in our area, uh, 00:50:31 a couple dairies as well. And so, I mean, I'd say it's pretty widely adopted in our area, but I know there's, there's those areas out there that, 00:50:39 that should definitely be considering that as part of their fertility program. You guys covered this subject with just a little bit 00:50:50 of disagreement, which I kinda like, I gotta tell you. Um, I mean, I, if I come back to, if I come back to Eastern Colorado, I'm gonna hang out 00:50:56 and, uh, have Coors banquets with you too and let you guys, uh, I'll bring up new topics and just throw 'em out there so 00:51:02 that you can disagree on stuff. And anyway, his name is Stratton Craft Craft Family Dairy. He is not the people that make cheese, 00:51:08 but a bunch of his product probably goes to cheese. Uh, he's a big, uh, he's a big dairy farmer out there and he is all about, uh, utilizing manure. 00:51:16 In fact, if you wanna buy, if you wanna buy a million dollars worth of manure, that'll get you about eight gallons from 00:51:21 what the math I just heard him say. Uh, and then, then there's Paul Byer with Next Gen Fertilizers. 00:51:26 Uh, Paul is a member of Extreme Ag and we appreciate that. He's also, uh, as a client of mine 00:51:32 and I was up there to speak and I really enjoyed it. So anyway, if you wanna become a member of Extreme Ag and take your, uh, agricultural 00:51:38 and agronomic game to the next level for just seven $50 a year, you get direct access to the guys for question and answers. 00:51:45 You also get exclusive offers, like for instance, could have gone to Commodity Classic for free. And more importantly, you get trial 00:51:50 results at the end of the year. All the stuff these guys are doing, you can get the information. 00:51:54 Uh, so really, really a, a cheap investment for, uh, a lot of long-term gain. Consider becoming an extreme Ag member. 00:52:01 Till next time, thanks for being here. Great topic guys. Thanks for being on. 00:52:06 Thanks for having us, Damien. Yeah, Thank you. Thank you. Now, now Stratton's gotta get out 00:52:10 and adjust some irrigation. Um, all right, till next time. Thanks for being here. I'm Damien Mason. This is extreme ag cutting the curve. 00:52:16 That's a wrap for this episode of Cutting the Curve. 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