00:00 I met Heath in the summer of 2022 there were in South Dakota and my this guest kind of a cowboy. I didn't think they dressed like that in Virginia 00:09 and then I popped off to him. He popped off right back and I thought you know what we're gonna be in the parking lot mixing up. We're gonna get along so far. It looks like we're getting along. I think 00:18 you're gonna like to hear from Heath welcome to extreme acts cutting the curve podcast where we cut your learning curve with insights. You can apply immediately to your 00:27 farming operation. This episode is presented by Loveland products when it comes to crop inputs, you need 00:33 products that are feel proven to deliver both results and value for more than 50 years. Loveland products 00:39 has been providing Farmers with high performance value driven product Solutions designed to maximize productivity on 00:45 every acre visit Loveland products.com to see how they're Innovative products can help you farm more profitably and now here's your host Damian Mason. 00:56 Hey there, thanks for joining us for another fantastic episode of extreme acts cutting the curve today. We're talking to the National Corn 01:02 Grower Association yield contest winner and new extreme AG affiliate Heath kutral out of Virginia Heath kutrell. Thanks 01:11 for being here. Yeah, man. Thanks for having me would you say it's an accurate assessment that I made a little wise apple and 01:18 the next you know, we're going to town there at a bar in South Dakota. Yeah, it got a 01:24 little dicey for a second. He's you got you got on with extreme AG kind of because of temples. So Temple roads 01:32 one of our Affiliates and the Eastern Shore Maryland. You're not all that far apart. You're in Virginia. So tell us about the background how 01:38 how you and Temple became Buddies? Oh, well last year went to commodity classic and also met Chad and Matt and 01:49 was becoming well, they came up to me and started asking me a few questions and it wasn't but just a few minutes we could tell we 01:59 was like long lost Brothers. And Temple, you know him being the wise ass he is. I mean that that went right in well with me I could 02:07 see where that would I consider would be a commonality. All right. So answer me this tell me about your operation Virginia. 02:13 Most people don't think of corn yield competitors coming out of Virginia. When you think of corn obviously think of my home 02:19 state of Indiana you think of Iowa, obviously you think of Illinois, Nebraska the Cornhuskers even Minnesota's big 02:25 producer corn up there in the prairie part of Minnesota. You don't always think of Virginia you want to tell me that I'm wrong and that assessment but 02:31 that's I'm talking about perception. I'm not talking about reality. The perception is they don't grow corner of Virginia. 02:37 They've got the the Blue Ridge Mountains. They got you know that Washington DC part of Virginia, they know agriculture out there, but I'm wrong aren't I 02:46 You are wrong. Actually if you follow the national corn yield contest a lot of women you just coming 02:55 off east coast and I think a lot of these guys are doing well out here, you know, actually we were talking I was actually talking to a couple guys today and 03:04 we were talking about the midwestern Farmers probably like when the hell are these guys doing growing all this corn, you know 03:10 out here near the Atlantic Ocean. So how far are you from the Atlantic Ocean? If you was to get in a plane fly straight across 03:19 probably 10 miles. By the way, pretty quick. And by the way, I actually have been a speaker at the Virginia Farm Bureau conference. So I actually was joking when 03:31 I said nobody does agriculture in Virginia. I'm a little bit more familiar than some probably people that don't think there's I got there. 03:37 I'm about your operation. So a form about 5,000 Acres of farming Northeastern North Carolina and Southeastern, Virginia, we rotate crops 03:49 from corn wheat and soybeans and then double crops soybeans behind that been pretty successful in the past few years been in 03:59 the National Corn Growers Association the yield contest since 2015 and been enjoying doing that and learning 04:09 a lot of things from a lot of good people Southeastern, Virginia. Not too far from the Atlantic Ocean. And you said 04:16 you're corn and soybean producer. Is there tobacco in your part of the world? No, that's that's a little further west from us about an 04:24 hour West an hour. Throw two hours West rooms. First thing I think of is I know that you know in the other places I mentioned that there's a lot of corn it goes to 04:33 ethanol our corn goes to livestock. Is there a livestock by you? Not a lot of livestock. No a lot of our corn. 04:39 We're right here near Norfolk, Virginia. A lot of our corn goes on ships and is exported along with the soybeans. Okay. So 04:48 you're you're going to the north of Porter Norfolk and you're getting exported. Does that give you a price premium because you're not 04:54 too far from a port where it can go overseas. It does on the some soybeans corn as well. Yeah, I think 05:04 the guys that are selling to the Mills that were actually getting probably a little better premium than us. 05:12 5,000 acres and I'm trying to Envision this are we talking about is this flat ground? Is there curvy ground? You know, I went to everybody thinks Iowa's flat 05:21 until you go to Kelly Garrett's and there's like I told him I said if there's places you put a ski you put a lift chair 05:28 on some of this stuff. What's your ground like over there? Aren't I tell everybody our ground is this flat as a 05:34 sheet of paper? There is no there is no curve to whatsoever. It is flat as you can see. I mean it is super flat. 05:42 If it's that flat you have a drainage issues your stuff lay a little bit moist. Is it bulgy? Are you catching Atlantic storms 05:48 and all the sudden it makes you wet. You know, our friend Kevin Matthews is always talking about beating these hurricanes coming off 05:54 of the Atlantic. Are you far enough North? It doesn't impact you Same here. We we're always battling with 06:00 hurricanes. And you know, we are we do have some title ground around here. None of my arms have much title ground, but our water 06:10 table is pretty high here as well. Okay, so we here your internet connection is just a little bit spotty. Did you say tight ground or 06:19 tile to ground? title title round where the water will come in here, you know from rivers and streams title as 06:29 in Title Wave title ground. Oh, yeah, that's something I've not heard in all my discussions. So farming ground that is tidal means that it your 06:38 water tables up and then when you get Atlantic storms, it causes you have because that what I'm kind of gathering. Well, no. 06:48 That's a rivers or the sound. We're close to the sounds when it when it rises it it can you know 07:01 bring water into the fields. Tell me about how you got to what was the number on your on your corn yield competition National winner 400 and what? 07:14 No, I went 400 was three three ninety four. That's what we were shooting for but we didn't get there. Okay. Well 394 is a pretty damn 07:23 close to 400. What do you do to get through 94 bushel corn? Do you just did you get lucky and have all the practice in place or is it? No, there's no luck involved. 07:32 There's a little bit of everything talk to me. Well, I believe there's a lot of look involved and you know. 07:40 Taken from what I've learned in the past several years of doing this with any anything that I could do. I throw 07:49 in the kitchen sink at it every year seem to have found three or four more bushels this year. So, you know There's a lot to it. But without giving out too 07:59 many Secrets. Yeah. Hey, they always do it by they say dry land versus irrigated 394 bushels. That's dry land. 08:07 That's driving in the up and it's all conventional tilt. Yes conventional tillage you do not do no-till. 08:14 We do not know till so does that mean you're out there? You're out there still the moldboard plow and a disc and the stuff like we did in the 1970s or what's what's tillage look 08:23 like to you because I didn't think there was that much tillage are you you're not telling the way your grandpa did I assume? 08:31 Pretty close. We we pull rippers to begin with we'll do that as soon as the ground dries now dries out enough for us to go. 08:40 We'll rip will rip the ground and take that hard that um that that hard base away compaction and then we'll 08:49 come in there with some true tandems plow the land up and field cultivator. We'll come behind that with field cultivator and a 08:58 roller just a firm the top of the ground and then we'll plant it. So we'll make six or eight passes. You're making a lot of passes here. Here's been a lot of money on diesel 09:08 fuel so versus a no till A reduced till you got a big diesel bill. We got a big fuel bill, but it's been working 09:16 for everybody in our area and it's the way we form in this area. There's not a whole lot of no tillers everybody in 09:23 this area has always, you know race crops that way just the way it's done here Lee lubbers and I had an episode about a year 09:32 ago where he talked about his move to almost completely no till and sometimes just a little bit of tillage and he said it's 09:41 a matter of moisture preservation because he's an area gets like 16 inches of moisture, you know even converted snow 09:47 per year and he also it's about Manpower. I live in the middle of nowhere. I can't get the the people to come out here and do it. You don't have a moisture issue, right? 09:55 Well, we do that's another reason we tell our land also normally during Harvest will cut the ground up with these combines. So new moisture 10:04 issue your moisture issues the the opposite of leaves you got too damn much water too much. We can't get rid of the water. That's right. And so 10:13 even if you put in drainage tile when you got a water table, that's like at eight feet. It's gonna be a struggle 10:19 to even get rid of it through drainage. That's right. So we don't do tile here. We actually have ditches and 10:27 and these ditches so right we call cuts of land and we Farm in between the ditches of versus having one big farm. The farm is 10:39 cut up with ditches which allows the water to get away from us and you know fathers out of the field then we'll have little drains in between the ditches that 10:48 we run as well. When we talked to Temple, he talks a lot about being in the Chesapeake Bay Watershed and he's got 10:55 environmental scrutiny going back 20 and 30 years ago. That's just now coming to mainstream American agriculture. You're right there next to 11:04 the ocean. You're in Virginia. Do you have environmental pressures on you? Because you've got 11:10 all this water going out to see sure that a god you can't be out there just going to cowboy-ish with your pesticides and 11:16 herbicide treatments right now. We're doing the same thing. We're in the Chesapeake Bay Watershed as well. So yeah, so on the standpoint of 11:25 all that tillage that's also a lot of time and so when Lee tells me he has to manage around the lack of Manpower. Do you 11:34 have a whole bunch of higher hands to be driving these tractors as many hours. 11:39 Yeah, normally I got two or three part-time guys that helped me and then I have three full-time guys that work for me. So there's always, you know, six to 11:48 seven of us working sometimes up to nine depending on what we're doing and when Got it. No livestock just crops just 11:56 crops. Got it. All right, so you didn't give away all your secrets. Give me a couple of things about how you go about planting corn whether it's the 394 bushel corn 12:05 or just what you shoot for on your farm average which by the way, what was your farm average away from the contest Fields? What was your farm average in 2022 well to be 12:14 completely honest. I can't answer that yet because we still have corn and tanks and we didn't weigh going into 12:20 tanks. I can't give you a an honest answer but I'm gonna say it's close to 240 to 250. Okay, that's really good corn, which means then you can justify 12:31 some extra diesel being used Kelly. Garrett told me he takes him five and a half gallons of diesel per acre farmed. I'm guessing you're more than that. Do you 12:40 know how many I mean gallons of diesel per acre Farm you use I don't I upset myself. I knew all right 12:49 talk to me about the other crop soybeans. So and no wheat? Yeah, we plant wheat as well. Yes. 12:55 We plan about anywhere from six to Thousand Acres a week every year and then we'll double crop soybeans behind it. Okay, so 600 to 13:04 1000 Acres a week and then you double crops your wheat and that part of the world is getting the harvested is getting harvested June 10th, 13:10 June 15. That's right middle of June. Yes. Okay. So what what like we talked about this week beans as my buddies, you know 13:19 like Chad and Matt like to call them double crop means is why not do that on every acre as a matter 13:26 of time. It's a lot of time. We actually also bail these huge bails behind our wheat, you 13:34 know try to get your beans planted in a that's the bet the main thing is getting the beans planted on time. That's very crucial and you know getting the weed out to hold another job. So 13:43 that's one reason. We don't plan it on every answer got it. You sell straw. You said it goes to Pennsylvania for I 13:49 was thinking dairies and you said no for mushrooms. So that's actually a revenue source for you. That's right. Yep. Also cleans up the wheat 13:58 straw off the ground allows that planner to get right in there and plant instead of a hairpinning. You know, that's a big issue with a lot of times when you're planting wheat 14:07 beans. Yeah, and so all the all the tillage you do for your conventional crops. You don't tell anything on your soybeans that go in. It just goes the soybeans go straight into wheat stubble. 14:17 Yes, sir. Yep. What do you think you you can teach the listeners and the followers of extreme angry a whole lot of Secrets. Honestly just things 14:28 that I've learned how to what does and doesn't work and how much money you willing to spend to win a contest. Give me 14:34 an example of a 2022 something that worked and give me an example of a 2022 something that did not work. 14:41 We are this year was the first year that I put chicken litter out. That seemed to have given some corn 14:50 a little bump. and I can't be I can't be honest with you with what didn't work because we tried so much at one time. 15:00 We don't single anything out. So but I will say the Chicken Little was was a big help. Chicken litter I got way in 15:10 demand when fertilizer prices spiked a couple of years ago. Did you have a hard time getting your hands on chicken litter this time? 15:18 Oh didn't really have a hard time getting it, but it's so far for us to go get. 15:23 You're going up to Delmarva to get this out of the chicken facilities up there. 15:28 Yeah, we were actually going to the Eastern Shore and picking it up. Yeah, got it. 15:34 Everybody has a strength. Everybody has a weakness production versus business. You're probably more on the production than 15:40 the business side of farming is what I'm guessing because you like to see bushels. Is that right? 15:46 That's correct. Yeah. All right along with that. How do you compensate for your weakness? If you are willing to admit that you're stronger production and weaker at the business side of 15:55 it. What do you do to compensate? Who do you have an office manager? You have somebody that really dials in on the money and marketing? Who 16:01 does that? Believe it or not. I do all of that and sometimes it's a life lesson. 16:10 I do the best I can and so far it's it's more for me. So sometimes a lot of late nights upstairs working on the books, but you 16:19 know, it is what it is. I Ain't got I don't have a whole lot of help as far. All right, give yourself a we're gonna give ourselves grades. 16:27 You're gonna give yourself an A on production of corn about beans. Are you an A and beans? 16:32 So no, I'm not a human being that I am a strong big. All right, we'll give you an it will even give you an A plus on corn if you're hitting two if you're hitting 394 bushel, we'll 16:45 give you an A+ on corn. We're gonna be a B plus on soybeans. Maybe just a b we'll go with the be strong, right? 16:52 All right. So what do you think you can gather from your friends extreme mag? That can take you from at least a bee to 16:58 a B plus or better yet. Take your soybean production from being a b grade to an A minus because and we're talking about personal 17:04 here. And by the way, most people don't do this most people will sit around there and won't admit their weaknesses. I appreciate you doing that. You're be on 17:10 soybeans. What are you gonna do to get to an A minus? You think extreme I can help you? 17:14 so that being said this year I talked with temple and the guys from extreme Ag and told them, you know, 17:23 I could My being you, you know, raise about 3500 Acres of beans and you know, it's hard for me to get anything over 60 books bushel average. 17:35 So Temple stepped in and kind of gave me a little program and I went with that program and believe it 17:44 or not. I followed it up messed up and it was the best wheat beans that I've ever picked. My wheat beans probably average what they did the average 17:53 over 70 bushels. So that's double and that's double cropping Heath. I'm not here to like you farm economics, but if you can get 18:01 Beans following wheat you made money off of Silence draw you made money off the wheat and you did 70 bushel beans. I think that maybe 18:07 we might just found that your whole experience with extreme AG's already making you a lot of money. 18:12 It is I'm taking these guys are. These guys an extreme AG or awesome people. I mean, they're such a good fellowship with these guys and so not 18:21 they're very knowledgeable. I mean they make me feel stupid every time to get in a conversation. I kind of want to walk away from it. 18:29 Let's go ahead and give ourselves a letter grade on a couple other things marketing of the commodity. It's I I 18:35 don't do it. I don't I don't do it cuz I don't Farm. I rent my farm around out and if I did my own farming I'd have somebody else do the marketing because I 18:44 think watching one and a half cent moves in the soybean complex would make me lose my mind. I I just would I just glaze 18:53 over at it. What? What about marketing? Give me your letter grade on your marketing. 18:57 I'll actually give myself a I feel like I give myself a a minus on that. Um 19:05 I have just been very fortunate to hit most of the highs of seems like a year to year to get out of the best. So 19:15 elevator says he can't believe that I sell the crops the way I do. And anyways, I just it's all a big. Yes and gamble. Anyways, whether 19:25 you your marketing or someone else. I mean, nobody knows what that Market's going to do from day to day. 19:30 You said you said a penny and a half but it's been swinging 50 cents sometime. Right? Well, you feel pretty 19:39 smart when you catch that 50 cents up you feel pretty stupid when you're 50 Cent's down. Hey without divulging 19:45 all your secrets. He's cute troll. One of our business partners is a company called agerson. They have a product called accomplished Max you said hey, I use that in my 19:54 corn. Tell me what you get out of using accomplishments. Yeah, we use accomplished maximum. We've been doing it year after year. 20:02 From what I can tell, you know, it's a big beneficial benefit for us. 20:07 We tried it in a farm three years ago without it and with it and you could just see a big difference in the corn. 20:16 from the stress standpoint Absolutely. Yeah. All right. Kelly Garrett makes a big point that stress mitigation was 20:24 gonna be a major theme for him in 2022 because he says I think that we're going to learn that we probably have adequate amounts of bulk fertilizer out there. I think 20:33 that we were gonna learn that we have over fertilized and I'm not talking about the infero stuff like our friends at Agra liquid or nature. I'm talking about, you know, throwing out 20:42 tons and tons and tons of you know, I realizer he says I think that we've got stress plants that can't take the fertility. Anyhow, would you agree with that? 20:51 Are absolutely a hundred percent. You're in an area that gets some stress. You've got the moisture and you've got the heat. 20:58 What do you do? What do you think you're doing right to keep that crop happy to avoid stress. 21:04 Well, you know, we're doing tissue samples. We completely here and I've always told people, you know, you never want that corn plant 21:14 ever have a bad day. So we're trying to stay ahead of everything by using, you know, samples and 21:21 everything every you know, once a week, like I said, do you use more Fungicide and more passes with 21:28 fungicide because of the climate you have versus maybe somebody that's in Western say central, 21:34 Nebraska. We do we most of the time we make three passes will perform just that it keeps 21:42 the plant healthy, you know, you can ride here and there and see other places that don't use that many passes and you can 21:51 see a big difference in the corner most of the time. All right, we're gonna give yourself letter grades because you know why I'm actually this because I'm gonna find out a year from now after your 22:00 time with extreme AG what you improved on your letter grade and also the stuff you're giving yourself an A on I want to be able to ask 22:06 you to help our listeners how they can get to an a soils, you know, agriculture starts 22:12 and ends with soil. Where are you in terms of put your economy hat on. All right. What's your letter grade as a farmer agronomist? 22:22 oh, I give myself maybe a a b c plus maybe see plus. Hey wait, man. We got we got to work with you. 22:31 No reason I'm giving myself that is because I hire that out and I have a good guy that helps me with that and I will you know step by 22:40 step with this guy. He's he's amazing and I don't want to take anything from him. Anybody deserves a be him. Yeah, you know what several of our 22:49 guys once you have a certain scale. It's very justifiable to have either an on staff or a consultant agronomist. 22:55 When did you make that decision? Oh, I've had this particular gentleman for probably five years now. 23:04 And and it's worked out. Yep, he's a he's a phenomenal guy. He's very very 23:11 Good at what he does? Worth the investment every penny. What about technology first off? You give yourself a letter 23:19 grade about adoption of Technology right now. I'm thinking man internet out where he is is not that great based on our connection. 23:25 What about other technology? How are you about applying technology to get bigger benefit and bigger yield 23:32 and therefore bigger money. So we do that with our equipment. We got some of the latest Case International Tractors the 23:41 they call AFS connects along with that. I bought a new corn planter last year and it has every Bell and whistle on it. 23:50 And it you know, the emergence for that seeds put perfectly we're putting a two by two by two starter in there with it along with 23:59 a infer so as far as technology goes, I'm gonna go with the standpoint of our equipment. 24:06 You know running rtk. It's just everything seems to kind of line right in. Yeah, by the way, you didn't give yourself 24:14 a letter grade. So we'll give you an A on your adoption and utilization of Technology. 24:19 When you talked about farming 5,000 acres and then obviously got a lot of tillage going on. I'm a Planters. Do you take over that? You got one for corn one for soybeans? 24:29 Got one for corn one of 40 foot corn planner and then we have two two big bean planners that we run to 35% and then 24:38 the people that want to know how do you plant your wheat? We are actually drill it believe it or not 20 foot at 24:45 a time. So how's makers a week 20 foot of the time? It's that's a Week. Okay. We kind of go back old school where we 24:54 cut our teeth from. A thousand acres 20 feet of the time. So apparently you don't have any problem getting hired hands out. There is all 25:02 I'm thinking. Well, either that or Austin lots of long lonely nights out there by myself speaking of employees, you 25:11 know, you've got them you just said you got a few guys that are on seasonal and you got a few guys that are year round give yourself a letter grade on being a manager 25:20 of humans because that is something that I Marvel at when I look at some of these operations like that's a lot to keep going on and you become a manager of employees. How 25:29 are you as a manager? I feel like I'm a pretty good. I feel like I'm a pretty good guy. I try to treat them as I would want 25:37 to be treated. And you know the end of the year they deserve a bonus and I do that every year and trying not 25:45 to take those guys for granted. They you know, I wouldn't be where I'm at with my success without these guys believe in me. 25:54 Well with the situation in the workforce here for the last couple of years, you've had to give them pretty hefty pay reasons. I would think to stay competitive or they'll go down the road. 26:03 That's absolutely right, you know and and like you said it's hard to find any good guys anymore right now, you know, I've offered 26:12 several different. Yeah pretty big money and nobody wants to work. So it's you know, we put our hats on in the 26:22 morning time pull it down and you know, we formed to the end of the day and then so so I mean, we you know, we just keep on going what we 26:28 got it. Yes you paying those guys 20% more than you did just a year and a half two years ago. Pretty much. Yeah, I'd say I'm not quite 20 but yeah, there was 26:37 a it was definitely a produced. Cuts into the bottom line, you know when you look at 2023 what excites you with your operation, 26:46 but also with extreme egg. Definitely extreme mag. I'm looking forward to you know even more help. 26:55 Yeah, one for the nation this year but these guys are also knowledgeable guys and you know, they might have a secret that they could Point me into where I could get 27:04 to that 400 bushel mark. Well, I hope they're more willing to share their secrets than you. Are you said? Hey, wait a minute some of that stuff proprietary information. I'm not 27:12 gonna put that out there. Well, you know, I'm not gonna ask them for two men too much. But if they're willing to give me something I'll take it. Yeah, and 27:20 you're gonna be willing to give some of your stuff too. All right, we're gonna wrap this up here. I want to introduce you to extreme AGS 27:26 followers, but more importantly get to know some of the stuff that you're going to share with us. I look forward to hearing some more from you and specifically like 27:35 about some of the practices, you know your farm in a pretty different. Arrangement, then a lot of places you talked about title as 27:43 I've never heard that before title conditions. What do you want? What do you want to what do you want to tell the listeners that you think they should stay tuned? Why should they stay 27:53 tuned to hear more out of Heath cultural? Oh, well, I like to see or be able to help some people, you know 28:01 and Eagles and corn. I'm a kind of kind of guy that likes the fat people in the back, you know and watch them succeed. I 28:11 mean if I can help somebody succeed, I mean that makes me a winner every day. Do you have your neighbors that resent you 28:20 for being a 394 bushel corn guy? I'm pretty sure I did I'm pretty sure there's a couple around here. It all right anything we didn't cover that 28:31 we should have in this in this introductory episode of me. He's cute, right? 28:35 He said, you know, you said you're out there you got your employees and all that. You do all the stuff. What else? What are we not asking about you? 28:43 What do we what what are we not ask about you first off? You wear cowboy boots, and I called you a cowboy. Do you even have cattle? 28:50 I used to have cattle but I got rid of them the farm and became so much that you know, I didn't have time. That's okay. 28:58 Makes sense. What else what else about you do we do we need to do we need to know you're the Virginia guy? You're a Virginia affiliate. You learned how to you grabbed 29:07 about another 20 bushel of soybeans thanks to Temple. I think you better send him a little gift card. So it's a Walmart or something. What? Oh, yeah. What else do I need to know about what else 29:16 do I need to know? I think you got it all summed up. I'd say you got it all wrapped up. 29:24 And if these people want to see you in play in person, you're gonna be at some of our future events. We're gonna be seeing you. 29:33 Yep, I'll be at the Virginia soybean Association and then we'll follow it up with Virginia in 29:42 Kentucky. And then after that I'll be at the commodity classic in Orlando. Fantastic, so he's cutral. He 29:52 is our new extreme AG affiliate out of Virginia. What's the town named by the way? We're in Chesapeake, Virginia, Chesapeake, Virginia. Hence. That's 30:00 good Heath. You're looking forward to seeing these people. Absolutely. Can't wait. All right till next time he's 30:08 heathcutra. I'm Damian Mason. This is Extreme Edge cutting the Curve. That's a wrap for this episode of extreme eggs cutting the 30:15 curb, but there is plenty more available by visiting extremeagdot farm for over 50 years Farmers 30:21 have turned to The Proven lineup of crop inputs offered by Loveland products from seed treatments Plant Nutrition at event and crop protection products Loveland has 30:30 the complete lineup to keep your farming operation productive and most importantly profitable check out 30:36 Loveland products.com to learn more.