Farming Podcast | Is It Time to Trust Non-Branded Ag Inputs? | XtremeAg

00:00:00 Can you trust generic crop inputs? You hear about 'em, you see 'em on the marketplace, but do you use them? 00:00:06 And why not? That's what we're talking about in this episode of Extreme Ag Cutting the Curve. 00:00:10 Welcome to extreme Ag Cutting the Curve podcast where real farmers share real insights and real results to help you improve your farming operation. 00:00:20 And now here's your host, Damien Mason. Hey there. Welcome to another fantastic episode of Extreme Ice. 00:00:25 Cutting the Curve. We're talking about post patent products. Uh, generic is a term 00:00:29 that some people may not even remember. In the 1980s, we had all kinds of inflation. You go to the grocery store, you'd have like a generic beer 00:00:35 can generic everything. Well, when we say generic, there's this idea that somehow it means it's lesser value or lesser quality. 00:00:43 Um, I think that we need to refute that. And I've got Brian Adams right here with North Delta Biologicals that's, uh, in inauguration 00:00:49 with our friend Johnny Verell. And I've got, uh, Brett Corbitt over here. He's a product development manager with Alba. 00:00:54 And we're talking about post patent products. We set this up on a call and I said, this is something we should cover. 00:00:59 They get used a lot in agriculture, but there's probably still some perception. I don't know, man. I don't know if the 00:01:04 quality's there. Talk to me. Yeah, so it's a, it's a big misconception and I think, uh, in order to address that, we need 00:01:11 to go back a little, little history. But let's start with what the American public is used to. You go to Walgreens CVS pharmacy, um, you know, 00:01:20 do you buy Tylenol or do you buy acetaminophen? You buy, you know, Advil, or do you buy ibuprofen? And so it is been well accepted by the Americans to put that 00:01:29 inside their body, but then it's kind of has a stain in industry of, oh, I'm buying a cheaper product in the field. 00:01:35 And that's not really the case. You know, we, we have formulation chemists on staff. We make manufacture things in house, you know, generics do. 00:01:43 But there is also a difference between generics. Brian. There's a difference between generics, but we're gonna do the testing and all the stuff. 00:01:48 'cause I know you guys can both geek out on that. So a lot of people don't know Brian here. There's a PhD, Mississippi State Bulldog. 00:01:54 I love talking to him. We've had a lot of fun. We recorded stuff about cotton when we were at Verres. We've recorded things in the past. 00:02:00 If you're in this space doing what you do, both in recommending and also selling stuff. There's a lot of room for post patent products. 00:02:08 Um, but there's still an idea. I mean, I hear it said things like, well, that fungicide isn't really a name brand. 00:02:17 Right. And so there's the idea that somehow it's not as good. Yeah. So, uh, that, that certainly exists, uh, 00:02:22 right now in the marketplace. And, and you think about it, um, Brett mentioned post patent actives, 00:02:28 you're getting the same active ingredient, right? They, you mentioned they have formulation chemists, they're going through quality control standards. 00:02:34 And, and I know we can speak to that more. And, uh, but, but my big deal is, is, 00:02:38 is in the economy we're in right now, is probably the worst of my career. Uh, there, there's a certain fit 00:02:43 and then there's certain products that, I'm gonna be really honest, I couldn't even remember the name of the original, uh, you know, the original, uh, 00:02:51 active or the original, uh, trade Original what you mean? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you think of MetroBus. 00:02:56 I don't, I don't know what that used to be, but there's, you know, there's a million of 'em out there now. 00:03:00 And, uh, certain things are there, there, there's room for it. In fact, there's, there's a lot of room, uh, as you look 00:03:05 through herbicides, uh, insecticides, fungicides, uh, and, and they fit well and they still perform just 00:03:11 as well, uh, as they ever have. It's just to understanding how to put, uh, put products together and use 'em in a system. Right? 00:03:17 You're the, you're the person. You know, a lot of education. You're like a lab guy, you know, 00:03:22 and there's the science part of it. But there's probably a thing, Brett, where you say, yeah, well it's one thing to say acetaminophen. 00:03:28 I'm just trying to cure a headache. Uh, this thing has to have 16 modes of action and hang around for eight weeks with residual. 00:03:37 We're not talking about, uh, a headache. 'cause I had too many drinks yesterday. We're talking about something. 00:03:42 Also, my livelihood depends on it. You can understand that. I don't mind generic Tylenol, 00:03:46 but I'm sure as hell not going entrust a thousand acres to the Absolutely. Absolutely. 'cause it's 00:03:51 your livelihood. You got money on the line, you, your farms mortgage with the bank, Judgmental neighbors. Exactly. 00:03:56 Drive By and see. That doesn't work. And so that's what you don't have That where you live. 00:04:00 Yeah, absolutely. We do. Um, so that, that was part of the thing of not all generics are made the same, 00:04:06 but when you think of, you know, what's considered, and these are some terms that we like talk through through the podcast, but you know, basic manufacturers, 00:04:14 you know, what is post patent, what is patented? So you have, you have these flagship companies, you have to tie to them, you know, they're doing discovery dere 00:04:21 what giving farmers options for the near future. So we, we have to have those within the field. The the thing is, 20 years after they synthesize something 00:04:29 and it comes off patent, you have generic companies. If they have brick and mortar within the us, um, you know, they can make something that is a 00:04:37 economical choice for the farmer. It has to go through the same EPA regulations, the same testing at universities before these generics. 00:04:44 It is tested, formulated in the us It is sold to farmers. It is a economical choice. 00:04:49 And a lot of times they have newer surfactants and additive packages to 'em that is different. Does the, the res the reluctance to use it is, 00:04:59 is there a basis in that there's a reason somebody got screwed somewhere on a, on a crappy product? 00:05:04 You know, something, something probably happens somewhere. Um, and, and I think a lot of that probably goes back 00:05:09 to exactly what he says when you're getting stuff from overseas, Damien, uh, the quality controls, the standards of production are, are not what they are here in the us. 00:05:17 Uh, and, and I'm that, that's, I know where he was going with it. So it, it gives generics or, 00:05:23 or post patent actives as a whole, uh, kind of a black eye on that. But, uh, no, he, he's absolutely right. 00:05:29 There's, there should be no basis for it. Uh, but, but you make sure you're, you're buying from a quality and trusted product. 00:05:35 Well, that's the tough part. So if I go, uh, the bargain route and I pick up a jug and it says 44% active glyphosate, 00:05:41 but it came from India. Yep. Can I trust it? I would put my glasses on and look that, that you've got in your pocket there 00:05:50 and read and see where it come from. And I would, I would try to lean toward American made. Uh, that, that's, that's been my experience only 00:05:57 Because of the, not because we're doing some jingoistic, uh, no, uh, thing here, because actual inspection. 00:06:03 Absolutely. Yeah. That's the reason you'd say that. Yeah. 'cause we, you know, oversight. Oversight. Yeah. You, you know, even, 00:06:09 even patented companies can bring technical in from, you know, good supply choices. Yeah. And, and some, and partners overseas. 00:06:16 I'm not saying that every single, you know, start to finish is made in America for generics Yeah. And patented companies. Um, 00:06:22 but if you have a company that's been around for, you know, several decades mm-hmm. 00:06:26 You know, example, 46 years, um, made, manufactured in America, we put certain parameters in place just like a patented 00:06:34 company would for formulation, uh, development for, you know, formulation, chemistry, retention samples. All those things have to be inspected. 00:06:42 And they're checked, DoubleCheck rechecked before they send out to a crop. To answer your question, I, I mean, I, 00:06:48 I use two four DI think it came from TSC, I don't know that there ever was a trade name for two four D. There's, there's a lot of 'em. 00:06:57 If you really think about it, we take for granted. Um, you know, metalcore is one that obviously is, is duals. That's kind of where it started. 00:07:04 But Metalcore is an older, older, older AI bu and two four D's the dicamba. There's, there's a lot of older chemistries 00:07:13 that are still very prevalent today that are available, um, available as a, as a post pack 00:07:18 and active from, from companies like Alba. Put on the hat of the customer, not Alba, and say, all right, what do I need to know? 00:07:26 In other words, since you know what, you know, from your end, now you're the farmer and you're wanting to make sure 00:07:31 that you don't have a bad experience with a post patent product. And most farmers have used post patent products. 00:07:38 I mean, again, the big one, the glyphosate, two, four D, there's a lot of, not Monsanto, well bear, uh, 00:07:45 Roundup. It gets used out there. Yeah, no, I, I, so if I was going to be a, a grower, for example, I would, as you echo what Brian said, 00:07:52 I think the older chemistries, you know, two four Ds of dicamba, glyphosate, glyphosates, I think, you know, those been around, they've been tested for years 00:08:00 and years and years in generic market. I would be fine with that if I, if you did have reserve and had some bad experience 00:08:05 or had, you know, you read something. So When you're 32 years old, you think Dicamba is old chemistry. 00:08:10 I'm still like trying to get used to it. I mean, it's only been around like 10 years, right? Yeah. Something like that. Well, I wouldn't, 00:08:15 when I consider it anything post patent, I consider it older chemistry. Right. Because you're Synthes synthesizing your research. 00:08:19 That's why it's patent. Exactly. All Right, so go ahead. So I, I would say, you know, some of the newer fungicides, 00:08:24 things like that, those are gonna, the check boxes that generic chemicals don't currently have. Um, but I, you know, I think 00:08:30 for the older chemistries a good, if you partner with a good generic supplier, you're not gonna have any, any issues. 00:08:36 And you know, as I mentioned earlier, you know, we, because certain companies been around for decades, yep. If anything happened with a a basic company, 00:08:42 it'd be the same thing as a, as a post back company. What do you think of when you think about this? Because it's not even we set this topic 00:08:50 because I, I'm not a person that thinks it has to be a brand name. I would say, you know, if I needed a product in my field, 00:08:58 whatever works and, and makes the the most cost effective sense. Yeah. So I mean, for me, um, given my background and, 00:09:05 and what I do in making recommendations, the evaluation has to be first and foremost from an agronomic standpoint. 00:09:12 What am I trying to achieve here? What, you know, what weed am I trying to kill? What disease am I trying to control? 00:09:17 Take the disease part, for example, I do, I even have the conditions favorable for, for said disease. You look at it from, um, an economic standpoint of, of 00:09:26 what the product costs, what commodity prices are right now. And say, okay, given the weather, uh, I think I can get 00:09:33 by maybe with a, with a, uh, little bit more economical option to get me to the finish line, right? 00:09:38 Because we can have the argument all day about an an automatic fungicide application or not. That'll, that's been going on 00:09:44 longer than I've been in the industry. Uh, and it'll be going on long after I'm gone. But if you think about it from a truly agronomic standpoint 00:09:52 and what you're trying to control, you need to understand what the actives are, what they can do for you, 00:09:56 and make that decision from there. So in the post patent market, uh, manufacturing base where you are, are you still doing testing? Oh, a 00:10:06 Hundred percent. Uh, we, we do testing. We have, you know, myself, Other, this stuff's been around for 20 00:10:11 or 50 years. Why bother? Yeah. Well, you gotta make sure that what we do day in and day out is in quality. 00:10:17 Um, so when I say we do testing, we do multiple steps. So we have the formulation lab testing, make sure everything that's going through the manufacturing 00:10:24 plant is the same, right? We don't want to Consistency of Consistency, right. Um, the, the next step would be, you know, 00:10:31 new things coming off patents. So when a Corteva or a Bear or BASF is, their patent is about to expire, 00:10:38 and we think that's an attractive active that we want to get into the game, we start testing our formulation of that arcs. 00:10:44 You know, we gotta add different inerts and a different, um, you know, adjuvants and stuff like that because it's newer and different 00:10:49 and we can't make the exact same thing. It's gotta be slight tweaks. So we test to make sure our 00:10:54 stuff performs well in the field. And then a lot of it is supporting research university, uh, cooperators, private cooperators, 00:11:00 and then also educating the public, which is a big thing. For example, you know, 2002, Iowa State did a, 00:11:06 a large study on glyphosate, um, and showed that, you know, all glyphosates actually performed, you know, 00:11:12 it was two generics in there. And then the Monsanto branded product all outperformed statistically the same. 00:11:17 And actually the generic products, because they have some newer, uh, surfactants in it outperformed Monsanto. 00:11:22 Um, so those, you know, those things are publicly available online for the public to read. I mean, it's, have you heard 00:11:27 Of this before? Yes. Where the, the, because the post patent stuff, finally they're doing little tweaks to it still. 00:11:32 And then all of a sudden we just made a better mousetrap. Well, Well it is, Of course, you 00:11:36 got a lot of time to work with. You do. And I mean, it is technology advances. Uh, I think you mentioned it earlier, um, surfactants, 00:11:44 whatever you can do to, um, to increase the performance of that product. By the time something goes off patent, you're 10, 00:11:50 20 years down the road, you've made some advancements in other areas. And, and he mentioned the inerts. 00:11:55 Again, the things that you put in there, you can figure out how to make that product just a little more 00:11:59 efficacious. So, And to, and to talk about economics. 'cause you mentioned earlier it's like, oh, well you're just buying something cheap. 00:12:06 Well, the reason why it's cheaper is when these, you know, you know, when these, uh, patented companies, 00:12:11 they invent these, it's hundreds of million dollars. You've got infrastructure, you've got research scientists. It is a long thing. 00:12:17 You've got all the environmental studies to get it registered. 'cause it's new and different. EPAs gotta 00:12:21 go through all these parameters. There's like a, a new pharmaceutical in that Exactly. Regard. Exactly. Always talk about you can bang on the 00:12:26 pharmaceutical companies, but they've got, you know, seven years to make up for the seven years of investment. And the guy in the white coat in there and the, 00:12:34 and you know, and the lady that's running trials and all that, there's a lot of money that's invested in that. So 00:12:39 Absolutely. But then when it comes off patent, you know, they made their margins. 00:12:42 They try to make as much money as they possibly can while it's on patent. Once it comes off patent, that's why the prices drop. 00:12:47 And if it becomes more economical for a farmer, because it had, you know, they were making a ton of money to try to make up for the investments they had to put in. 00:12:55 So that's why I would consider, you know, the negative from the, the generic is cheaper. Brian, you're, you're, you're, 00:13:00 you're, you're plus and your minus. So they said that the minus is, you have heard stories that are real of it was a dud and it's more 00:13:08 because it was misrepresented. Yep. It didn't have in the jug. Yep. What the jug said it had in it. 00:13:14 I won't say that it necessarily didn't have the, the have what it said was in the jug was actually in there. 00:13:19 Um, you know, I mean that's, there's government, uh, entities in place to check for that certainly. But, um, that it's maybe not formulated the best quality 00:13:29 controls the formulation, uh, especially as you get into, you know, like I said, some of these overseas, uh, 00:13:35 overseas manufacturers. Um, certainly the negatives, but the positives are, is that, that you can put together, uh, for me, solid, solid agronomic 00:13:44 and economic plans, um, for, for weed insect and, and disease control, uh, to manage throughout the season. And a large portion of that is, as Brett said, 00:13:54 be these post patent actives or generics, whatever you wanna call 'em. And, and, and again, the fit's 00:13:58 still there for your basics, right? Because it's hundreds of millions of dollars to get a new active to market. 00:14:03 Mm-hmm. And that's also paying for the failure of all the other molecules that didn't quite make it right. Mm-hmm. So, uh, the DNI portion of, of 00:14:10 what these basics are doing is, is absolutely needed. And it's critical to the industry, uh, as we make advancements, um, that's 00:14:17 how these guys are gonna pick up. Their future actives are gonna be coming out of other people's DNI programs 00:14:22 and, um, certainly a good thing. So the negatives and the positives are there, but pick a reputable company, um, and, 00:14:32 and partner with 'em. And that's always generally gonna be a really good way to go. Um, and there's a lot of 'em that are us manufacturing, but 00:14:39 Wasn't there a thing that's where, you know, we started getting this problem, the 2018 trade spats, the 2021 supply chain. 00:14:46 We started talking about not having crop inputs because a bunch of stuff came from overseas. Part of the reason it came from overseas is 00:14:51 because it, it was an off patented product and it was also affordability of manufacturing. So where's Alba make it stuff? So 00:15:00 Our main manufacturing plant in the United States is St. Joseph, Missouri, just another 00:15:03 side of the river of Kansas City. Uh, but we are a global company, so we have manufacturing plants all across 00:15:08 the, all across the globe. But, um, you know, most of the stuff that we produce is in the United States, 00:15:13 and we are a US based company. And I guess the testing would be All the testing, uh, 00:15:17 for anything sold in North America is tested in North America. Got it. What about the, uh, the, the other, I mean, I said 00:15:23 that the first one would probably be, I don't know if it's gonna work. Um, that's it. 00:15:27 I don't, I don't know that there's any horror stories that they bought something and it was, you know, it killed anything. 00:15:32 It's more just lack of, lack of effectiveness. It's usually a compatibility issue, mixing in the tank. Sometimes it may not even be the product. 00:15:39 You know, it doesn't matter what it is. If you got four or five products going into the tank and you have a compatibility issue 00:15:44 and one of 'em is new, you're gonna blame the new one every time without fail. And it may not necessarily be that. 00:15:48 I mean, just remembering proper mixing order, you know, that's still pretty paramount in what we do today. Um, don't ask me to quote what the proper mixing order is, 00:15:56 uh, because I don't remember. But I do have a handy little chart and, uh, you can actually Google that. 00:16:01 Uh, I should know it. But, um, as I get older, I forget things. Um, but a lot of times, you know, just keeping 00:16:08 to those principles helps a lot. But that's where a lot of that comes from. And I'm glad you, uh, mentioned that 00:16:13 because that's something we do rigorously in the lab. You know, when we, when we create these products, test Compatibility, It, test compatibility. Absolutely. Mm. 00:16:21 Recommendation to the farmer, the producer saying, all right, you got me. I'm believing I can trust this. I'm gonna put this in there. 00:16:26 Because usually it's the reason is well, availability and then affordability. Yep. Are those the two reasons 00:16:31 that I'm gonna go with a post patent product? Mm-hmm. Okay. And usually it's something that's been around 00:16:36 for a long time to, to, uh, Brett's point here. So look for where it came from. Look for it's tested. What else am I looking for? Compatibility, 00:16:44 Compatibility, mix order. Sure. Yeah. Quality of product and, and economics in a, in a $10 bean in a $4 corn market. 00:16:53 So you're saying that was the time to do it? I'm saying, yeah, about two years ago would've been a great time to start and, and be well on your way to it now, 00:17:01 but, uh, I wouldn't have any issues as long as I knew how had a good supplier Last thought. So you're the 00:17:06 guy that's in the lab. You're the one that's out here doing it. If someone you're in, you're speaking in an ag meeting 00:17:10 and there's a bunch of farmers there, and the guy raised his hand and says, I just don't know if I can trust your stuff. 00:17:14 What's your, what do they call it? Elevator speech? What's your one, what's your, what's your, what's your 32nd response? 00:17:19 Yeah, so we, we've had this a lot and we've, uh, I like to put money in my mouth this. So for example, Rutgers University, we had a guy who said 00:17:26 that he doesn't like to use our product, uses the brand name product. I said, Hey, you know, we will, I'll do this 00:17:32 research plot at university, all non buys, third party data, you know, we'll run stats on it. 00:17:36 We'll bring you and your company out there. We did, and we actually performed a tick better. Um, so I, I am a believer. 00:17:43 I mean, that's where my paycheck comes from. But I'm a believer in generic products and I've seen it firsthand. 00:17:47 I mean, day in and day out in My job. So, and Rutgers did a study for you and Ruggers 00:17:50 and you were challenged by a person. I was, yeah. Just like I just threw it out there. Yeah. Awesome. All right. I learn more about this. 00:17:55 I wanna start putting, uh, post patent products more and more into my mix because of the economics of agriculture right now. 00:18:01 Uh, I wanna learn more about your stuff. Been around for 46 years. Where do I go? Yeah. All Ball.com. Um, 00:18:06 we have a pretty good website. Check it out. Yeah, we got, uh, multiple different entities. We've got seed treatment, business specialty, 00:18:13 business crop protection. And if I wanna look you up personally is Brett Corbett, you know, and I'll be the guy that challenged him 00:18:19 to make him keep keep, keep his game up. Yeah. He's joined by Brian Adams with Volunteer Ag Services. I said North Delta biologicals. I can't keep it straight. 00:18:27 It's all the above. It's all the above. I don't, I don't know Who I work for most days. 00:18:30 I appreciate being here. His name is Brian Adams. His name is Brett. I'm Dam Mason. Thanks for tuning in here. You know what, we got a whole library 00:18:36 of information just like this. You can learn from, it's at Extreme Ag. Do Farm hundreds 00:18:40 and hundreds of these podcasts that we've produced, plus the videos the guys shoot out in the field. Not to mention, if you want to take your learning 00:18:46 to the next level, you become a member of Extreme Ag. It's only seven $50 a year and you can get access to our webinars, 00:18:52 you get access to the year end data. You also get special offers from our business partners. And also then you get access to the guys for, uh, 00:18:58 information about, uh, organic, I'm sorry, information about, um, crop production and, uh, all sorts of other things 00:19:05 that you might wanna go a little deeper on. So thanks for being here. Until next time, I'm Dave Mason 00:19:09 with Extreme Ag Cutting the Curve. That's a wrap for this episode of Cutting the Curve. Make sure to check out Extreme Ag Farm 00:19:15 for more great content to help you squeeze more profit out 00:19:19.045 --> 00:19:20.405